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Post by Chris - Capitals on Jan 13, 2023 18:07:44 GMT -5
Never said that one has occurred what was said was I don't want the ability to do so taken away if need be. I'm also not going to go over all our old veto threads to rehash arguments that have already been made like you love to do. My point is simply that I don't feel like removing the ability to veto is in the best interest of the league overall. Unless we have something else in place I can't vote to remove it. So let me me get this straight, you're of the opinion that "we're not here to determine fairness" and "it's his team" but you still want the ability to veto if need be? Understood. I know it sounds like a flip or washy but yes. I feel like overall the league makes solid trades and if they're close then sure it's not up for us to decide if they're fair. However, who is to say that the day after the veto ability is removed someone decides to trade 3 of the their top 5 players for futures and then toil around for the remainder of the season and quit? At that point we've abolished the veto we can't turn that back once we cut it off. |
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Post by Chris - Capitals on Jan 13, 2023 18:10:07 GMT -5
Never said that one has occurred what was said was I don't want the ability to do so taken away if need be. I'm also not going to go over all our old veto threads to rehash arguments that have already been made like you love to do. My point is simply that I don't feel like removing the ability to veto is in the best interest of the league overall. Unless we have something else in place I can't vote to remove it. So it hasn't happened in 17 seasons and you still think we need a safety net? Do you agree vetoes/veto attempts have hurt the league? I just quickly went over them just now, took less than 10 minutes, there haven't been many. The only one I noticed that could potentially be put into question was when Tyler - Jets was trying to acquire Marchand. I think it's obvious to you and I, and everyone in the league, that vetoes/veto attempts have hurt the overall health of the league. Any attempt by me to bring up any will result in me rehashing old arguments and could deteriorate league relations I'm not going to do it. You're stuck on the past I'm talking about the future if it's removed. Can you tell me how many trades didn't get posted because the veto rule was in place? |
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Jan 13, 2023 18:10:41 GMT -5
So let me me get this straight, you're of the opinion that "we're not here to determine fairness" and "it's his team" but you still want the ability to veto if need be? Understood. I know it sounds like a flip or washy but yes. I feel like overall the league makes solid trades and if they're close then sure it's not up for us to decide if they're fair. However, who is to say that the day after the veto ability is removed someone decides to trade 3 of the their top 5 players for futures and then toil around for the remainder of the season and quit? At that point we've abolished the veto we can't turn that back once we cut it off. This would be collusion though. 'Futures' also can't be traded. |
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Post by Daniel - Canucks on Jan 13, 2023 18:11:36 GMT -5
So let me me get this straight, you're of the opinion that "we're not here to determine fairness" and "it's his team" but you still want the ability to veto if need be? Understood. I know it sounds like a flip or washy but yes. I feel like overall the league makes solid trades and if they're close then sure it's not up for us to decide if they're fair. However, who is to say that the day after the veto ability is removed someone decides to trade 3 of the their top 5 players for futures and then toil around for the remainder of the season and quit? At that point we've abolished the veto we can't turn that back once we cut it off. That's opening a big can of "what ifs". From my research since this leagues inception I've never come across a trade like the one you've suggested might occur, and is an extremist scenario. |
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Post by Chris - Capitals on Jan 13, 2023 18:15:45 GMT -5
I know it sounds like a flip or washy but yes. I feel like overall the league makes solid trades and if they're close then sure it's not up for us to decide if they're fair. However, who is to say that the day after the veto ability is removed someone decides to trade 3 of the their top 5 players for futures and then toil around for the remainder of the season and quit? At that point we've abolished the veto we can't turn that back once we cut it off. This would be collusion though. 'Futures' also can't be traded. Prospects and Entry picks absolutely can be traded. Purely hypothetical does this hurt the league? To San Jose 23' 1st round entry Caufield Rossi Bratt Hischier Sergachev To Washington Bennett Laughton Krejci |
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Post by Chris - Capitals on Jan 13, 2023 18:16:13 GMT -5
I know it sounds like a flip or washy but yes. I feel like overall the league makes solid trades and if they're close then sure it's not up for us to decide if they're fair. However, who is to say that the day after the veto ability is removed someone decides to trade 3 of the their top 5 players for futures and then toil around for the remainder of the season and quit? At that point we've abolished the veto we can't turn that back once we cut it off. That's opening a big can of "what ifs". From my research since this leagues inception I've never come across a trade like the one you've suggested might occur, and is an extremist scenario. It is "what ifs" but its something that must be taken into account when determining if we're removing a rule |
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Jan 13, 2023 18:16:59 GMT -5
Any attempt by me to bring up any will result in me rehashing old arguments and could deteriorate league relations I'm not going to do it. So in other words you agree vetoes/veto attempts have hurt the overall health of the league and have the potential to do further damage if brought up again. You're stuck on the past I'm talking about the future if it's removed. I'm the one looking forward, the past helps us to learn and improve. Can you tell me how many trades didn't get posted because the veto rule was in place? Whether the trades go through or not is largely irrelevant, just the veto being brought up itself and the resulting arguments has hurt the health of the league and continues to do so. |
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Jan 13, 2023 18:20:27 GMT -5
This would be collusion though. 'Futures' also can't be traded. Prospects and Entry picks absolutely can be traded. Purely hypothetical does this hurt the league? To San Jose 23' 1st round entry Caufield Rossi Bratt Hischier Sergachev To Washington Bennett Laughton Krejci You need to stick to what can actually happen when trying to make a point. This trade would never be offered. You wouldn't give up your 1st Entry alone for that package. |
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Post by Chris - Capitals on Jan 13, 2023 18:23:55 GMT -5
Prospects and Entry picks absolutely can be traded. Purely hypothetical does this hurt the league? To San Jose 23' 1st round entry Caufield Rossi Bratt Hischier Sergachev To Washington Bennett Laughton Krejci You need to stick to what can actually happen when trying to make a point. This trade would never be offered. You wouldn't give up your 1st Entry alone for that package. It's a hypothetical trade if I offered it would you take it? Of course you would and if we removed the veto rule nobody could do anything about it. Which would in turn really piss off some of the middle of the pack teams. Or better yet what if something happens and someone gets pissed at the deadline and decides to stick it to someone and load up a playoff team by selling off assets for penny on the dollar? There are to many what if scenarios that could play out and absolutely hurt the league way more than veto discussions have in the past. |
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Post by Chris - Capitals on Jan 13, 2023 18:25:47 GMT -5
Also I question if it's such a problem why has it come up so few times in 17 seasons?
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Jan 13, 2023 18:35:35 GMT -5
You need to stick to what can actually happen when trying to make a point. This trade would never be offered. You wouldn't give up your 1st Entry alone for that package. It's a hypothetical trade if I offered it would you take it? Of course you would and if we removed the veto rule nobody could do anything about it. Which would in turn really piss off some of the middle of the pack teams. Or better yet what if something happens and someone gets pissed at the deadline and decides to stick it to someone and load up a playoff team by selling off assets for penny on the dollar? There are to many what if scenarios that could play out and absolutely hurt the league way more than veto discussions have in the past. If you offered me this I would inform Derrick and you'd be fired. It's a ridiculous hypothetical trade that would not occur. The attempt to use it as rationale for your opinion is flawed. Also I question if it's such a problem why has it come up so few times in 17 seasons? Why is it a problem? It's been well established as a problem, even by Derrick himself, look around you. It's a problem because it's being used as a strategy and a tool by other managers to keep teams from improving. It's a problem because arguments and hatred spew forth because of it needlessly. It's a problem because it insinuates there can be no trust in our league or its managers. |
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Post by Daniel - Canucks on Jan 21, 2023 19:22:36 GMT -5
Still awaiting one last final vote, that person has until Monday @ 7:00pm EST to cast their vote before the poll is locked and finalized. Votes may be adjusted until this time as well. Thank you.
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Post by Daniel - Canucks on Jan 23, 2023 22:09:24 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone for their participation in this poll, as it stands the rule in question will remain the same as it won the votes 7-5.
As mentioned earlier, has anyone come up with any suggestions/improvements on the currently flawed system regarding vetoes?
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Jan 25, 2023 8:00:05 GMT -5
This is actually a rather unique situation where, despite the poll being in favor of keeping the rule the same, vetoes are highly unlikely to occur ever again. Should everybody who voted to abolish the veto system remain true to their vote it would create a voting bloc of sorts with only one additional vote needed for total elimination of any future vetoes. I believe Chris - Capitals has the opinion of 'No Vetoes' despite his vote in the other direction in the event of a catastrophe style trade. Other managers who voted for the rule to remain the same could also decide to not veto. My suggestion for an improvement would be one I've already set into motion by challenging Derrick to put up his 1st Round Entry pick should he be wrong about my trade. I think that's the solution. Collateral. If you vote to veto something you should be so sure that it's unbelievably one sided that you'd have no problem putting up your 1st Round Entry pick as collateral should you be wrong. This would confirm your vote to be true to your feelings on the trade and not due to meddling or hampering competing managers. This would also give the manager involved in the perceived 'winning side' of the veto vote compensation and thus make him less likely to be angered by it. The 1st Round Entry pick should be put up by every single manager making a veto vote for a trade, whether the trade gets vetoed or not, placing the vote requires collateral. Details would have to be hammered out and agreed upon for each unique trade before the Veto Poll is posted. I will absolutely stick to my convictions. If both players are healthy and play a full season on their respective teams, there is 1000% no chance Batherson outpoints Pastrnak at any point over the next 3 years. Or ever. Wicked! That's big of you, I'm gonna hold you to that, all 3 Entry picks or just the 1st? I said if Batherson outpoints or outranks Pastrnak on Yahoo though. What constitutes both players being 'healthy'? What's a 'full season'? Perhaps instead of 'healthy' or 'full season' we agree on a minimum amount of games played for each player and/or within a certain amount of games of each other like 10 games between players but if Batherson were to outpoint or outrank Pastrnak while playing in fewer games anyway it would still count? Some details to hammer out! 😆 Derrick, we gonna hammer out and finalize these details or what?? 🍻 Just like I've challenged Derrick to stick to his convictions with this proposal, I challenge every single manager who voted to veto my trade to stick to theirs and put up a 1st Round Entry pick for the same stipulations, especially those who made their opinions known with posts in my trade thread. 🍻 |
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Feb 3, 2023 0:30:18 GMT -5
Like I said before, I will gladly put up my picks because barring injury or other circumstance that limits games played, there is an absolute zero percent chance Batherson outscores Pastrnak over the course of a full season over the next 3 years, or ever. Not only will I put up my 1st, but ALL of my entry picks. The issue is, I am not going to potentially reward you because your terrible trade justifiably fell through. So you need to bring some collateral to the table if YOU are as confident as you say. I will put up all my picks each year, you put up your 2nd Round. I don't mind collecting a few of those. Deal?
In the mean time as I await your response, let's play one of those matching games. Here are some stat lines since the trade in question. Match them with their correct counterpart. Go!
18 G, 12 A, +14, 14 PIM, 10 PPP, 3 GWG, 93 SOG
5 G, 10 A, -11, 6 PIM, 7 PPP, 0 GWG, 56 SOG
9 G, 10 A, -5, 14 PIM, 8 PPP, 1 GWG, 70 SOG
Fiala
Batherson
Pastrnak
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Feb 3, 2023 2:00:24 GMT -5
Like I said before, I will gladly put up my picks because barring injury or other circumstance that limits games played, there is an absolute zero percent chance Batherson outscores Pastrnak over the course of a full season over the next 3 years, or ever. Not only will I put up my 1st, but ALL of my entry picks. The issue is, I am not going to potentially reward you because your terrible trade justifiably fell through. So you need to bring some collateral to the table if YOU are as confident as you say. I will put up all my picks each year, you put up your 2nd Round. I don't mind collecting a few of those. Deal? In the mean time as I await your response, let's play one of those matching games. Here are some stat lines since the trade in question. Match them with their correct counterpart. Go! 18 G, 12 A, +14, 14 PIM, 10 PPP, 3 GWG, 93 SOG 5 G, 10 A, -11, 6 PIM, 7 PPP, 0 GWG, 56 SOG 9 G, 10 A, -5, 14 PIM, 8 PPP, 1 GWG, 70 SOG Fiala Batherson Pastrnak Man, it really must be Groundhog Day (brilliant movie, just finished watching it) because I feel like I'm just repeating myself here. This isn't a bet. I've already replied to your attempt to get something out of this, right here...read it again... 🤣 It would be like you to try to get something out of it instead of straight up sticking to your convictions in an effort to prove a point. Nah, nah, nah, this isn't a bet proposal. You fucked me over. I don't know who is gonna be better in 3 years because I believe it's a fair trade. The reason Bob got the extra first was because Pastrnak is ready now, I wouldn't have to wait years by acquiring him like I'll have to wait for Batherson. It was a question of 'Do you want to be better now or in the future?' You believe, strongly enough to veto, that there is no fucking way Batherson ever comes close to supplanting Pastrnak's production, nevermind over the next 3 seasons. So you shouldn't even worry about it, right? Just put up those picks then and prove a point. Nothing to worry about...if you're right. If you really believe in what you're saying you'll agree to this. Cheers! 🍻 Alright? To which you replied... I will absolutely stick to my convictions. If both players are healthy and play a full season on their respective teams, there is 1000% no chance Batherson outpoints Pastrnak at any point over the next 3 years. Or ever. So you've already agreed to my proposal. There is no more tinkering to get something out of it from me. The only thing left to do is hammer out the details on what constitutes 'healthy' and a 'full season'. Unless you're into going back on your word that is, seen some of that from you here and there, just let me know if that's what's occurring here. The trade also didn't 'justifiably fall through' either, it wasn't vetoed, Bob - Kraken simply went back on his offer to me and I agreed to pull the trade like a gentleman! It actually unjustifiably fell through. By the way, it took you over a week to reply? No other replies from anybody else on my proposal? You veto vote throwers? Huh? That's what I thought...that's exactly what I thought. 🚫🥜 When it comes to the Veto System, do you or anyone else in the league have any ideas on how to improve things? Go! 😎🍻 |
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Feb 6, 2023 3:35:29 GMT -5
Dude! Batherson was AWESOME in the All-Star game.
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Feb 6, 2023 5:22:48 GMT -5
Dude! Batherson was AWESOME in the All-Star game. 🤪 Dude! Do you know how many players as young as Batherson made it to the All-Star Game? Like...less than 10. Like...20% or something. You see the list of players that actually had to be voted in? Come on! 🤡 I wouldn't expect you to see greatness developing, I've gone over this, just take a look at your smelly farm teams...here, free audit, a list of the truly worthless smelly players smelling up your farm teams, players that you'd literally be better off just outright dropping because A) they're bad players with poor development outcomes who will never do anything for anybody and B) there are waaay better players out there (right now!) to be signed for free! Check it... Yegor Sharangovich (24/130)*
Klim Kostin (22/46)*
Nick Merkley (25/41)**
Brett Leason (23/36)*
Adin Hill (26/74)**
Marcus Hogberg (27/42)**
Anthony Stolarz (28/62)**
Scott Wedgewood (29/77)**
Yegor Zamula (22/12)*
Juuso Valimaki (23/82)*
Sean Durzi (23/64)*
Erik Brannstrom (22/116)*
German Rubtsov (23/4)*
Jordy Bellerive (23/0)*
Samu Tuomaala (19/0)*
Brad Lambert (18/0)*Smelly-assed shit. 👃🍑💩 The longer you wait to agree to terms with my proposal the more you look just as scared as I know you are...and I looove it! Cheers! 🍻 |
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Feb 6, 2023 5:39:51 GMT -5
Dude! Batherson was AWESOME in the All-Star game. 🤪 Dude! Do you know how many players as young as Batherson made it to the All-Star Game? Like...less than 10. Like...20% or something. Elias Pettersson? Troy Terry? Kirill Kaprizov? Clayton Keller? Jason Robertson? Jack Hughes? Andrei Svechnikov? Adam Fox? Mitch Marner? Nick Suzuki? Matthew Tkachuk? Brady Tkachuk? Rasmus Dahlin? |
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Feb 6, 2023 5:50:04 GMT -5
That's a ton of players. Hey, I said as young as Batherson, meaning as young as him (birth year) or younger. Holy moly. Terry, Kaprizov, Marner, Matthew Tkachuk...nnnnnnnnnnnnnope! Removing them keeps the total under 10, woohoo! 🥳 Point stands! Even though it was a rough estimate. 🤪
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So exciting.
You better make that pick or trade it! I'm excited to see if we can use up all the draft picks this year.