Golden Knights/Jets Trade

[Derrick - Senators]

Seems like every trade lately results in one of these polls being created. However, like always, there has been some concern raised with this particular trade so I’m doing due diligence in starting a discussion.

Vegas trades

Marchand
2nd waiver

To Winnipeg for

Zaitsev
McDonagh
Pavelski

[Tyler - Jets]

Some GM’s don’t even answer personal messages yet everyone has time to debate a perfectly simple trade. If Laine Schneider is okay I can’t even believe this trade is going to a poll.

[Tyler - Jets]

This is just non-sense you guys know there is nothing wrong with this trade. Just creating a poll to create a poll now. It’s getting to the point in this league where we need to create a trade thread and then make a poll to be sure everyone approves before it’s posted.
EVERYONE EVALUATES THEIR OWN TEAM AND ALL PLAYERS DIFFERENTLY!!

[Daniel - Canucks]

Instead of throwing your hands in the air and having a fit, why don't you justify and explain your reasoning behind the trade? We want as much parity in the league as possible, especially when it comes to high profile players being traded.

Marchand is a top 10 caliber fantasy hockey talent period, he has proven it and is a good cornerstone to build any franchise around. Zaitsev is an unproven blueliner with potential, but at this time it is unproven, he is currently regressing this season and is only on pace for a mere 23 points compared to last years totals of 36. McDonagh however is a proven defenseman whose ceiling hovers around the 40-point mark, I would no way consider him one of the best defensemen in the league but he is a solid talent (not a keeper worthy talent in my opinion). Pavelski WAS a top caliber player but he isn't getting any younger, getting rid of a top end player like Marchand to downgrade to a Pavelski is a mistake even taking into consideration the defensive assets you're getting back. PLUS you are getting rid of a 2nd Round Waiver pick which is a very valuable pick that if used correctly could land you easily a top 100 fantasy ranked quality player.

To sum it up...

To Winnipeg:

9th overall ranked player (Marchand)
2nd Round Waiver (top quality player who could potentially hover around the top 100)

To Vegas:

119th overall ranked player (Pavelski)
473rd overall ranked player (Zaitsev)
295th overall ranked player (McDonagh)

For the record, I didn't inquire to Commish about this trade I am just expressing the reason behind my vote, no this trade is not fair.

[Tyler - Jets]

There is no reason to justify anything because all this comes down to opinion. This league for the most part has parity and is still very stale at times. GM’s are worried about making moves because every little thing is debated and fussed over for not being “fair” in someone’s opinion.
All of your opinionated facts up above have nothing to with Curtis’s view of the potential of Pavelski to rebound as a number 1 C McDonagh on a struggling Rangers team getting number 1dman minutes. Or Zaitsev’s future as he evolves into a 20+ minute defender who missed 2 months with a broken foot to drastically lower his fantasy ranking.

[Curtis - Golden Knights]

I feel this trade helps my team and allowed for me to make my deal with Detroit. Boston is overacheiving this season and i dont believe Marchand will post the same numbers in the future.

[Nos - Sharks]

I mean, this trade isn't anywhere close to being fair. I don't know how you can objectively argue or justify it as such, which is why Tyler won't do it. Nobody has done it in words because it can't be done. If this goes through you can pretty much ditch the whole notion of vetoes all together because this is one of the worst value trades I've ever seen. Those facts/notes up top posted by Daniel - Canucks are actually facts rather than an opinion, you do realize that right? Facts are used to evaluate offers and players, otherwise you could just say it's your opinion that someone like Zach Hyman could outperform Connor McDavid.

The Schneider/McAvoy/2nd Entry for Laine trade was a very fair deal that never should have gone to poll, why did it? Who complained? McAvoy himself was drafted 14th overall in 2016 vs. Laine at 2nd. Add to that Schneider, an established #1 goalie on a solid team and a Top 24 Entry Draft pick and you have excellent value, how can you even argue otherwise? I also don't know why both Derrick and Tyler allude to 'every' trade going to poll now, do you know how many veto polls there have been over the past few years? The Laine/Schneider/McAvoy trade (a silly one) and this one. Before that was one in 2015, also involving Winnipeg. The one before that was in 2013, also involving Winnipeg and it got vetoed. Before that was 2011 and 2010, so how often does it come up? Basically never.

Zaitsev & McDonagh are inconsequential to the deal because they are not keepers, they have no value to Vegas beyond this year, they're average fill ins. You can find comparable players on the FA list. So you're left with Marchand & 2nd Waiver for Pavelski. Marchand is not only better, by a lot, but he's 4 years younger. What matters most when evaluating players is how they've performed over the past 3 years. Marchand has 20 points over his last 10 games, Pavelski has 7 points over his past 10.

Marchand:

2015-2016: 0.79 points per game.
2016-2017: 1.06 points per game.
2017-2018: 1.32 points per game.

Pavelski:

2015-2016: 0.95 points per game.
2016-2017: 0.84 points per game.
2017-2018: 0.69 points per game.

Do you see a trend? You can certainly go off of personal feeling and thought, to a certain degree, but there's no reason whatsoever to believe Pavelski is a superior talent at this point in their careers. The even more perplexing thing here is that in addition to Marchand the 2nd Waiver pick is going to Winnipeg! Say whaaaat?? So okay, maybe it's not all about points right? Well Marchand is one of the best multi-category players in the league. He has an edge over the past 3 seasons in +/-, PIM, SHP & SOG. They're virtually tied with everything else, PPP & GWG, maybe you could say Pavelski has the minor edge in PPP but that's only because of the 1st year (2015-2016) in that 3 year window breakdown.

Now I'm left wondering why Curtis didn't talk to other managers about Marchand? A top quality player on the block, Top 15 player, you'd think he'd be shopped hard, no? To squeeze the best value available out of this All-Star, Fantasy Hockey Economics 101 people. For real. Also, let's briefly talk that other trade with Detroit. Trocheck (16th overall rank) vs. Neal (79th overall rank), Trocheck is 6 years younger. Younger and better. Werenski (229 overall rank) vs. Little (182 overall rank), Werenski is 10 years younger and a prospect, free keeper. While rank hasn't caught up yet this year Werenski is indeed younger and better than Little. Last season in his rookie campaign, as a defenseman, he had the same amount of points as Little (47). Werenski also had superior +/-, PPP & SOG, virtually tied with everything else. Little has an injury history. Makes little sense, excuse the bad pun.

Finally, yes you do have to justify yourself when a veto poll gets put up. That's the whole point, to hear reasoning behind an absurd trade so the rest of the league can try to relate. Bad trades like this affect everybody, the league as a whole, not just the two teams involved. From what you've said Tyler, and Curtis, it sounds like wishful thinking more than anything else. You can't just say, 'I feel.' It sounds like, 'I hope.' Gotta give some reasoning, facts, to back up your claims, right? Now you have to ask yourself, does somebody who truly believes a trade is fair act like Tyler has acted? To me, with the Laine/Schneider/McAvoy trade, I didn't care one way or another. I gave reasoning and facts, nothing more. If it was vetoed I didn't give a shit because I knew it was fair, I didn't act like I was going to lose something, like I was found out, like the jig was up, like Tyler has.

Textbook veto.

[Derrick - Senators]

This is a very unique situation that has, to my recollection, never happened in the history of NAFHL. While the vote was previously 7-5 in favor of not vetoing, it appears as though someone has changed their vote, making it 6-6. By this metric the trade would be considered vetoed. Since there aren't any rules in the league governing this particular scenario, we need to decide how to handle it.

[Nos - Sharks]

I was under the impression the poll would stay up for its designated 2-week period for league members to discuss things and at the end of that 2-week process the vote that stood would be applied? What do you think of the trade/s?

[Tyler - Jets]

I agree with one thing you said Nos.... we should put an end to veto’s.
I understand all of your analytics above and it shows a compelling argument. There has to be something for hunches and intuition as well though.
In an NHL trade the other 29 GM’s don’t call Betteman and get to veto. You make moves based on what you believe helps your team become a more balanced competitive squad. So any move you decide to pursue should be a “you made your bed now sleep in it” sort of thing.
Nos we’ve butted heads for years over various trades, matchups, and general happenings within the league. It’s because we’re ultra competitive people with widely varying views on how you should build your squad. In the end there are probably 10 other philosophies in this league as well on what’s a “properly” built team. Some of us may want players on our team we like to watch or get rid of other players we hate.
This league is an incredible assortment of GM talents and views when it comes to fantasy hockey. We should all be allowed to make gains and mistakes in whichever way we see fit.
Over the years the NAFHL activity has dwindled to the point where very few meaningful trades happen. There seems to be only a few of us pushing activity. That being said all of us need to be more attentive to personal messages and at least respond with a no thank you or not interested. Some of the evaluations on players have become astronomical where a bottom feeder never has a chance to acquire a talent level of significance.
It’s nice to see parity on the rise because we have a full roster of GM’s who are working to better themselves and grow within the NAFHL.
I believe both of these trades are not nearly as far away as the analytics state. But I will be compliant with whatever the league deems appropriate moving forward.

[Tyler - Jets]

Exactly my point here no one else has an opinion. We need participation in this league. All GM’s old and new step up increase your activity on the forum. Collectively is the only way we’re going to drive this league forward.

[Derrick - Senators]

Feb 9, 2018 12:21:19 GMT -5 Tyler - Jets said:

Exactly my point here no one else has an opinion. We need participation in this league. All GM’s old and new step up increase your activity on the forum. Collectively is the only way we’re going to drive this league forward.

I agree that the league needs everyone to participate and that it is at its best when there is a lot of activity, however in this particular instance the absence of posting does not necessarily indicate a lack of either of those things. The element of anonymity when participating in polls is a key feature in protecting privacy. Not everybody wants their opinion on a certain topic to be known. The only people who benefit from providing their opinions in this instance are the two teams involved in the trade, in attempt to provide clarity and perhaps persuade/alleviate the concern of those who think the trade should be vetoed.

[Nos - Sharks]

NHL GM's don't have to approve trades because of the economics of the league, because there's more at stake, money and jobs. Trades should be very difficult to make. I agree with you that GM's could be more responsive, I've definitely felt that. Even if it's a, 'I'll get back to you soon.' courtesy. At the end of the day you don't want to rip anyone off. How about a compromise for this split decision? If Tyler would agree, instead of Winnipeg getting the 2nd Round Waiver pick, Vegas would receive Winnipeg's 2nd Round Waiver pick. Still a great trade for Winnipeg but not so insulting.

[Tyler - Jets]

I would agree to the compromise of removing the 2nd waiver completely. I’ve already moved my third waiver and losing my second in this trade is to harsh in my opinion.
If the league agrees to amend the trade so Vegas keeps their waiver pick I’ll agree.

[Derrick - Senators]

There are 3 days until this poll expires. If nothing changes, the trade in question will be vetoed per written word of the rule book. At that point (or before), a new trade can be proposed/accepted for league approval. It seems like the two viable options are:

Zaitsev
McDonagh
Pavelski

for

Marchand


Zaitsev
McDonagh
Pavelski
2nd Round Waiver

for

Marchand