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Post by Derrick - Senators on Aug 10, 2023 0:01:23 GMT -5
Please vote if the trade in question should be vetoed.
To Canucks:
Erik Karlsson
Zach Hyman
2023 1st Round Waiver Pick (4th Overall)
To Kraken:
Noah Dobson
Cole Sillinger
Shane Pinto
2023 1st Round Waiver Pick (WPG) (11th Overall)
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Post by Mitch - Ducks on Aug 10, 2023 12:15:56 GMT -5
Not sure why you would trade the Norris winner and 100 point d man, a point a game winger last year playing with McDavid and on top of that downgrade a waiver pick?? Seems a bit lopsided to me for whats coming back in return.
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Post by Chris - Capitals on Aug 10, 2023 17:17:52 GMT -5
Karlsson was a 100 pt dman last year on a team where he could go all out on offense as their only offensive play driver. For the 3 years before that he had 97 total points combined the stars aligned for him last season for another memorable year. He's going to regress and it's not a matter of if but how much.
Hyman won't be attached to McDavids hip all year this season with the addition of Brown. Hyman could have a dip in production from that alone but add to the fact that he could also lose his cushy PP spot with Leon and McDavid could drop those numbers even more.
I'm not a fan of the pick swap either
Noah Dobson is 10 years younger than Karlsson and not injury prone and is putting up strong numbers on a offensively inept Islander team, they start getting more scoring players and his numbers could explode. Sillinger and Pinto are solid young players with upside when Hyman just had a career year again playing tag along with McDavid, he loses that spot his numbers won't stay where they were.
Could Seattle have potentially sold higher on 2 players coming off career years? Maybe...probably, but I don't think it's completely lopsided one way when career trajectory and ages are added into the equation. Vancouver is taking the now view and Seattle the longer view.
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Post by Daniel - Canucks on Aug 10, 2023 19:35:12 GMT -5
What a concept, everyone's got their own opinions on different players, crazy stuff! Thinking a trade is a "joke" and ignoring and not processing it (even after a well written team articles post 😉) for a month's time is unfair in my books. The trade occurred prior to a major draft, and if it got vetoed at the time I would've pivoted my General Manger tactics to better adapt to the situation. Too much time has passed and the league has had moving parts for over a months time. Waiting until a player I received got traded in real life and bringing it up a day later doesn't look the greatest either. At the end of the day, I inquired to Bob about Karlsson (a guy I literally couldn't trade for a bag of peanuts last season)...I asked Bob what players on my team he was interested in. He gave me a list of 6 players and I traded him 3 out of the 6 players on that list he provided me after I constructed the offer. I didn't even offer ANY players until he provided me that list. I'm not a fan of the pick swap either The whole purpose of the pick swap was the entire argument you just made of your analysis of the players. |
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Post by Chris - Capitals on Aug 10, 2023 20:42:37 GMT -5
I'm not a fan of the pick swap either The whole purpose of the pick swap was the entire argument you just made of your analysis of the players. I get it, but to me he's taking more risky players (unproven) and you're getting the proven commodities in vets. In the same situation I'd be asking for the pick improvement from Seattle standpoint because to me value gap is on his end simply due to the unknown ceilings. I personally would want more is all. Not at all enough of a gap however in my opinion to justify a veto. Also I'd agree that it's not a good look for the league to veto this now a month later. |
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Post by Colin - Avalanche on Aug 10, 2023 22:15:32 GMT -5
I don't really like the trade. It's mind boggling how one side trades the 2 best players in the deal including one scoring literally double his positional peer and also downgrades in player pick.
Yes Karlsson should regress regardless of what team he's on. But he seems finally healthy and a healthy Karlsson is a game changer. Not being able to trade him a year ago doesn't factor into this trade. Hyman on Edm is a 70 point floor.
Dobson is promising in his role but he's on an offensively dead team and there's a 50/50 chance he maxes out at 50 points as he hits 60 or more. And is most likely replaceable in waiver draft. Both prospects are likely irrelevant for fantasy. They will probably be better nhl players than fantasy guys
However, despite how lopsided I think it is, I think it shouldn't be vetoed. Too much time has passed. Just make better trades I guess
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Post by Tyler - Jets on Aug 11, 2023 0:21:44 GMT -5
The pick swap on top of the the players makes no sense at all. If this trade goes through we might as well just do away with vetoes all together. Better valued trades then this have already been turned down.
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Post by Tyler - Jets on Aug 11, 2023 0:24:50 GMT -5
Remember when this got vetoed:
Zaitsev, McDonagh, Pavelski, 2nd Round Waiver for Marchand
I’m sure you can post many more trades here….
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2023 15:11:01 GMT -5
How many weeks does it take to get a trade done here?
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Aug 11, 2023 16:41:08 GMT -5
How many weeks does it take to get a trade done here? Same amount as it takes to remove someone from the league. |
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Post by Daniel - Canucks on Aug 11, 2023 17:48:01 GMT -5
Some managers seem to think they can aquire assets for next to nothing. The price of the players I own is how I, as the GM, deem them valuable. I wouldn't trade Dobson/Sillinger/Pinto unless I got what I was asking for. Chris - Capitals isn't going to trade Bedard unless he gets what he's asking for, and trust me, it's absurd (but that's his right). If a certain manager wants certain players (especially young prospects) they are going to have to pay the price of how managers view them or move on.
If Bob was specifically interested in certain players, who are we to take that right away from him if he's comfortable trading his own players to aquire them. Fantasy hockey is also about gut feelings, hunches, players you personally like (I know I've overpaid for Canucks players and I'm sure Tyler has overpaid for Leafs players as well).
If a league dictates what's "fair" and right for every team you might as well just go through and design your own rosters for each team.
Anyway, sorry if that was a little long-winded, just wanted to add some more dialogue. Taking a month's time to process a trade come Sunday is sloppy for any league.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2023 18:13:13 GMT -5
How many weeks does it take to get a trade done here? Same amount as it takes to remove someone from the league. Is that threat? |
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Aug 11, 2023 20:10:11 GMT -5
I don't really like the trade. It's mind boggling how one side trades the 2 best players in the deal including one scoring literally double his positional peer and also downgrades in player pick. Yes Karlsson should regress regardless of what team he's on. But he seems finally healthy and a healthy Karlsson is a game changer. Not being able to trade him a year ago doesn't factor into this trade. Hyman on Edm is a 70 point floor. Dobson is promising in his role but he's on an offensively dead team and there's a 50/50 chance he maxes out at 50 points as he hits 60 or more. And is most likely replaceable in waiver draft. Both prospects are likely irrelevant for fantasy. They will probably be better nhl players than fantasy guys However, despite how lopsided I think it is, I think it shouldn't be vetoed. Too much time has passed. Just make better trades I guess This is an interesting take but I believe it's lopsided itself in thinking. Reason being you're looking at everything that can go right for one side and everything that can go wrong on the other side instead of finding the truth somewhere in the middle. Make no mistake about it, Noah Dobson is the most valuable piece in the trade by a lot. 10 years is also a long time. Do you think the Islanders would trade Dobson for Karlsson? No way, uh uh. Did you see what he got traded for in real life? So you agree Karlsson will regress, that's obvious, like Chris - Capitals said everything was being funneled through him and the Sharks were likely making that their yearly goal to get him off the team and they were successful. He's finally healthy? Do you know if he'll stay healthy? Why doesn't his value a year ago factor into the trade? It's part of his value history and where it could return to seeing as its been there before just a season prior and he's aging. 70 point floor for Hyman? How did you come up with this number? Before last season his 3 best point total seasons were 54, 41 & 40. I'd say it's fairer to regard that as his ceiling moving forward. I get it, you have the mindset of 'what have you done for me lately' and that's a great mindset to have, it's the safest mindset to have but you're definitely gonna miss out on emerging talent and mistake elder players who have already put in their contributions to the game as superior vs. younger players who have yet to fully establish themselves. If that were the way things were it would be simple for everyone to construct a roster, next guy, next guy, next guy with nothing to actually think about. You also have to consider where a team is, is this team close to competing or not? Should you pivot your elder talent for younger talent that will help within the window you see for yourself? Again, I'm not sure where you're pulling your percentages from? 50/50 chance he maxes out at 50 points at age 23? Why? Players of that age never improve? Teams don't change? Players aren't traded? Both prospects are irrelevant? Why? Cole Sillinger is a 22 year old 6'2" beast who has shown exactly one season of struggle, last season, if you track his progress before that he has a great pedigree. Shane Pinto is also a 22 year old 6'2" beast who scored 20 goals and 35 points in his first NHL season. You know who else did something similar in his first season? Mikko Rantanen. Am I saying he's Mikko Rantanen? No, just illustrating that it's indeed mind boggling to write off players this young at that size scoring that many goals but hey, that's why we're here, talking about hockey rules! The pick swap on top of the the players makes no sense at all. If this trade goes through we might as well just do away with vetoes all together. Better valued trades then this have already been turned down. I'm confused a bit by this, seems you're on the side of veto? A few mere months ago you said... Every GM in this league is capable of making trades and managing their roster how they see fit regardless of anyone’s outlandish or fair opinions. I’m still strongly for no more Vetoing. Let’s all grow up and be accountable for whatever decisions we make that turn out good or bad…. This is 80% of the fun of this league wheeling and dealing!! That fun gets taken away by never ending criticism of moves made both past and present. So I'm not sure where this response comes from, seems a touch vindictive, no? 😄 You really think this ho-hum trade is the measuring stick for doing away with vetoes? What about Derrick's Semin, Eaves & Sanford for Joe Thornton trade? Isn't that a far better measure? Remember when this got vetoed: Zaitsev, McDonagh, Pavelski, 2nd Round Waiver for Marchand I’m sure you can post many more trades here…. I totally get it and the frustration that comes from having a trade vetoed, however, that trade was far worse at the time than this one. It was Marchand in his prime & the 2nd Waiver to you for Zaitsev, McDonagh & Pavelski. It didn't really make sense whereas I can see the reasoning behind this trade, also wasn't the other manager a friend of yours? I can't remember 100% but at the time it sure seemed off. How many weeks does it take to get a trade done here? Same amount as it takes to remove someone from the league. Why are you making this comment? Bob has been a great GM and has made some very astute and ballsy moves. He also won the Playoff Pool in his first year. You're bringing uneasiness and negativity to the league. Why? We should be trying to bring productivity and positivity to the league. I'm honestly having a hard time understanding how someone who traded Semin, Eaves & Sanford for Joe Thornton can call for vetoes at all. Same amount as it takes to remove someone from the league. Is that threat? Don't worry Bob, again, it's the same amount of votes to cast someone out of the league as it is for a veto so it's very hard to do so. Everybody has to vote. You can check out the NAFHL Constitution for more information, it's labelled 'New Rulebook 2013'. Derrick seems to be attempting to concoct another outcome without the need for a poll like he did with Jacob - Wild. Another excellent GM who quit after all the harassment he was receiving. Stay strong, you're doing a hell of a job! |
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Post by Tyler - Jets on Aug 11, 2023 20:21:34 GMT -5
I am for no more veto’s….. it’s just hilarious how you guys are arguing this is a fair trade….. the 2 best players in the deal and a pick trade up all went to ONE team. That’s the definition of one sided. A new GM should look over old trades an understand evaluation better when it comes to a league of this depth. This is Vancouver exploiting a new GM again!! If you are going to trade Karlsson Hyman there should be way more futures involved to make this plausibly a smart move. 1st entries and way more established high end prospects. Yes this is my opinion but look at the other comments only Sharks and Canucks feel this is a smart move for the Kraken. Also I guarantee if Karlsson Hyman combo was put on the trade block publicly a bidding war would have eclipsed this value in an hour.
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Aug 11, 2023 20:43:27 GMT -5
That's really interesting you say that actually because I was thinking it myself when determining if this was indeed a fair deal or not, could I beat this offer? I really thought about it and the answer I came to is no. I would not feel comfortable offering more than that for those players. I don't really like those players moving forward to where I'd give up a 23 year old Keeper++ for them when I feel they'd be weak Keepers. I wouldn't trade my late 1st Entry for either of them. Cole Sillinger was a 1st Entry pick. Pinto had a great first year and is a free Keeper prospect. 22 year olds, what happens if Pinto is traded to Edmonton or Chicago or Toronto or Tampa Bay or, or, or. You're not gonna get high end producing prospects for those elder players. You've gotta buy low and sell high. Same situation last year when I traded Dylan Cozens (21 years old with 38 Points prior) for Marchand (34 years old with 80 Points prior and peripherals out the ass). Great...fucking...move by Bob. These are moves that gotta occur. There are many other things to consider and, yes, risks to take if you want to make an impact.
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Post by Daniel - Canucks on Aug 11, 2023 21:48:51 GMT -5
This is Vancouver exploiting a new GM again!! What is this exploiting crock of shit?! Pretty sure we all have the same capabilities to use the PM feature. Have you even reached out to discuss a trade with Bob this offseason? Put in the work for crikey sake. If you were interested in them you would've reached out. Like I said previously, all three players I traded, Bob was the one who specifically wanted them. I didn't offer nothing to him until he asked for specific players he wanted on his team. Also I guarantee if Karlsson Hyman combo was put on the trade block publicly a bidding war would have eclipsed this value in an hour. Tyler, you couldn't even come close to competing with that offer with a similar package. Go ahead and theoretically try, all talk. I guarantee it wouldn't even be in the same realm and Bob would probably laugh in your face. Your defense doesn't even come close Dobson. Your almost 30 year old Morgan Rielly?! 🤣😂🤣 Get a grip. |
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Post by Tyler - Jets on Aug 11, 2023 21:51:48 GMT -5
All opinions. We can argue about this for days. Let’s see what happens.
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Aug 11, 2023 22:06:20 GMT -5
If I could say one more thing, let's try to be more civil and kinder in this league because it really could lead to greater hockey talk, I know it's difficult to do so when you feel you're being questioned and attacked but let's just try to take a breath, think and respond in a more positive manner. I haven't been the best at this myself in the past but I want to be better. Think about things from other manager's perspectives as well, put yourself in their shoes. I feel things have gotten silent in this league unless something like this happens filled with negativity and boy, it ain't cool. Let's be coooooooooooool. 😎
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Post by Daniel - Canucks on Aug 11, 2023 22:22:07 GMT -5
I as well try to take the civil route when possible but when people say that I exploit people is where I draw the line.
Anybody else feel free to make a theoretical offer, c'mon...just for fun!
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Aug 11, 2023 22:36:32 GMT -5
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So exciting.
You better make that pick or trade it! I'm excited to see if we can use up all the draft picks this year.