Detroit Red Wings Farm Transactions

[Jeff - Red Wings]

Markstrom off IR and release Lafferty

[Jeff - Red Wings]

Gustavsson to IR
Call up Dan Vladar to Detroit

[Jeff - Red Wings]

Call up Dawson Mercer
Release Brayden Schenn

[Daniel - Canucks]

Jan 5, 2024 20:11:04 GMT -5 Jeff - Red Wings said:

Call up Dawson Mercer

Dawson Mercer was already skating in his 201st NHL game at the time of this transaction. Discuss. I hate to continually be the stickler on these matters but rules are rules.

[Derrick - Senators]

Jan 6, 2024 17:35:28 GMT -5 Daniel - Canucks said:

Jan 5, 2024 20:11:04 GMT -5 Jeff - Red Wings said:

Call up Dawson Mercer

Dawson Mercer was already skating in his 201st NHL game at the time of this transaction. Discuss. I hate to continually be the stickler on these matters but rules are rules.

Rules are rules, but no matter how verbose or well-thought out, a single rule can't always be comprehensive at the time it is written. We have seen this become an issue numerous times throughout the history of the league and this time isn't any different. After looking over the wording of the ruling, it doesn't explicitly state that the player has to be recalled before the start of the 201st game played. That was obviously the "spirit" of the rule, but now we find ourselves in the territory of debating what constitutes a game played. Is it when the player steps on the ice? Or is it the horn at the end of the game? We could argue endlessly, but being an hour or so late in recalling a player probably isn't worth the hassle, especially since there were not stats accumulated or an unfair advantage gained outside of poor taste in the bending of the rule that I assumed was "understood." With that said, the floor is open for discussion. I do not have a strong opinion one way or the other personally, but I definitely do no want this to set a precedent for this matter, or lend the impression that finding loopholes in the rules is encouraged.

[Nos - Sharks]

I've always believed the rule to be, and believe it was written this way to be understood as such, the player can be rostered on the farm for 200 games maximum. Therefore the player would be required to be recalled before he was to play in his 201st game and this means he would have to be on the main roster while his 201st game is played. That makes sense and is straight forward and clear. The Clayton Keller situation started this slippery slope of misunderstanding. I just don't understand how it's not understood this way? Like stated during the Clayton Keller situation, where is the player? If he isn't on your main roster while his 201st game is being played, where is he if he isn't on the farm? He's still on the farm, illegally rostered, no? This is definitely the grey area though, it's not like the Mitch - Ducks situation where Tolvanen's games played on Yahoo read 201 games after the day was over. I suppose we could implement a leniency period of a few games but, again, this is creating a slippery slope and why? People will begin to complain about being over the leniency period, "Oh come on, it was the 204th game instead of the 203rd game, I was so close!". I dunno. I personally don't have a problem with him keeping the player I'm more concerned with the rules being the rules and with people all understanding them. If they aren't working we can discuss changing them. I think the best way is to say it's 200 games maximum and the player has to be recalled ahead of his 201st game or lost to Suspended Waivers.

[Daniel - Canucks]

Jan 7, 2024 20:20:44 GMT -5 Derrick - Senators said:

Jan 6, 2024 17:35:28 GMT -5 Daniel - Canucks said:

Dawson Mercer was already skating in his 201st NHL game at the time of this transaction. Discuss. I hate to continually be the stickler on these matters but rules are rules.

Rules are rules, but no matter how verbose or well-thought out, a single rule can't always be comprehensive at the time it is written. We have seen this become an issue numerous times throughout the history of the league and this time isn't any different. After looking over the wording of the ruling, it doesn't explicitly state that the player has to be recalled before the start of the 201st game played. That was obviously the "spirit" of the rule, but now we find ourselves in the territory of debating what constitutes a game played. Is it when the player steps on the ice?

This is correct. A player can get injured in the first 5 seconds of his shift and it will count as a game played in the NHL history books.

Jan 7, 2024 20:20:44 GMT -5 Derrick - Senators said:

Or is it the horn at the end of the game? We could argue endlessly, but being an hour or so late in recalling a player probably isn't worth the hassle, especially since there were not stats accumulated or an unfair advantage gained outside of poor taste in the bending of the rule that I assumed was "understood." With that said, the floor is open for discussion. I do not have a strong opinion one way or the other personally, but I definitely do no want this to set a precedent for this matter, or lend the impression that finding loopholes in the rules is encouraged.

As General Managers we just need a concrete decision made on the latest we can recall our Minor Leaguers without the players being subject to Suspended Waivers.

When is the latest I can recall Lucas Raymond to protect against a possible injury?

This is what we need to establish after this discussion.  We should get to the point where it should be cut and dry with no grey area.

[Daniel - Canucks]

Jan 7, 2024 20:42:44 GMT -5 Nos - Sharks said:

I personally don't have a problem with him keeping the player I'm more concerned with the rules being the rules and with people all understanding them. If they aren't working we can discuss changing them. I think the best way is to say it's 200 games maximum and the player has to be recalled ahead of his 201st game or lost to Suspended Waivers.

I'm on the same page with this. The player needs to be on your Yahoo Roster so you have the option to dress or bench the player for his 201st NHL game. 👍

[Colin - Avalanche]

As far as the situation goes, it sounds like the wording is open to interpretation so I'd be fine if he kept him. I never really thought of it that way but I can see how someone could think that.
I agree with Nos and Daniel to make it straight forward, the player should be called up before the start time of the 201st game. Cut and dry

[Nos - Sharks]

I'm not saying he should be called up before the start time, I'm saying he should be called up prior to game day so the player can actually play his 201st game with the main club. It's the same situation as Prospect send downs prior to Minor Leaguer status clock over. It's not before game time, why? Because then that Prospect can play in his 151st game accumulating stats for your team while clocking over to Minor Leaguer status in the process. Same situation with Minor Leaguers graduating to regular Player status, you are holding that Minor Leaguer on your farm for an extra game instead of having the player taking up a main club roster spot.

[Colin - Avalanche]

Jan 8, 2024 1:36:52 GMT -5 Nos - Sharks said:

I'm not saying he should be called up before the start time, I'm saying he should be called up prior to game day so the player can actually play his 201st game with the main club. It's the same situation as Prospect send downs prior to Minor Leaguer status clock over. It's not before game time, why? Because then that Prospect can play in his 151st game accumulating stats for your team while clocking over to Minor Leaguer status in the process. Same situation with Minor Leaguers graduating to regular Player status, you are holding that Minor Leaguer on your farm for an extra game instead of having the player taking up a main club roster spot.

Oh I see what you're saying. I don't agree then. But he's eligible to be on the farm team at 200 games. So it doesn't matter if he available to play in game 201 as long as he's not on the farm. Changing the wording to 'player X must be available to play at game 201' is making it more complicated than it should.

A situation could arise where a player is injured at 200 games for who knows how long, then gets activated before game 201 weeks later, no warning. And if you see it same day he's lost now? Seems silly

[Nos - Sharks]

I see what you're saying and sure a situation like that could arise but to me the players are either on your farm or on your main roster. There is no in-between. At 200 games it's time to make a decision on the player for main club designation. Be it 200 or 201 games played, either way the implications and outcome is exactly the same, it's just whether or not the farm is rostering players for 200 games or 201 games, you'll have to make the same exact decision at 201 games.

[Daniel - Canucks]

I'm on the same page with Nos - Sharks here.

How I see it, if you want to look at it in real time, Tolvanen was recalled at 201 games played and was lost. Mercer was recalled at 201 games played and should also be lost.

As soon as your player hits that 200 games played mark, you need to recall that player ahead of their next game so they are on your Yahoo roster for that game. Not recall them before puck drop on the 201st game...not recall them in the middle of their 201st game. They need to be on your Yahoo roster FOR that 201st game. Seems pretty simple to me.

Same goes for prospects clocking over to minor league status after their 150th game played. If, for example, Scott - Maple Leafs wants to send down McTavish before he becomes a Minor Leaguer. He needs to send him down THE DAY BEFORE he plays his 151st game (so he is off his Yahoo Roster for that 151st game). Otherwise he could be accumulating stats for his team still.

Jan 9, 2024 8:21:26 GMT -5 Colin - Avalanche said:

A situation could arise where a player is injured at 200 games for who knows how long, then gets activated before game 201 weeks later, no warning. And if you see it same day he's lost now? Seems silly

This is the risk you take of leaving a Minor Leaguer on your Farm Team at 200 NHL games played. You better be on the pulse of that injured player and better be reading every single injury report ahead of his activation of becoming healthy if you want to keep him on your farm.

[Derrick - Senators]

Jan 9, 2024 19:12:55 GMT -5 Daniel - Canucks said:

I'm on the same page with Nos - Sharks here.

How I see it, if you want to look at it in real time, Tolvanen was recalled at 201 games played and was lost. Mercer was recalled at 201 games played and should also be lost.

As soon as your player hits that 200 games played mark, you need to recall that player ahead of their next game so they are on your Yahoo roster for that game. Not recall them before puck drop on the 201st game...not recall them in the middle of their 201st game. They need to be on your Yahoo roster FOR that 201st game. Seems pretty simple to me.

Same goes for prospects clocking over to minor league status after their 150th game played. If, for example, Scott - Maple Leafs wants to send down McTavish before he becomes a Minor Leaguer. He needs to send him down THE DAY BEFORE he plays his 151st game (so he is off his Yahoo Roster for that 151st game). Otherwise he could be accumulating stats for his team still.

Mercer was recalled an hour after his 201st game started. Tolvanen wasn't recalled at all. Mercer did not accumulate stats for his team, Tolvanen would have. There is a bit of a difference there, however nuanced, and that is why we are having this discussion. Lots of good points have been made, but it would be just as easy to rewrite the rule to say "...no player may accumulate stats for his 151st, 201st etc. game" but again, seems convoluted.

[Nos - Sharks]

Both Mercer & Tolvanen had played in their 201st game before being recalled. I don't see why accumulating stats matters? For these situations we are determining how long you can roster your Minor Leaguers on your farm team before they graduate to regular Player status. Adding a rule like "...no player may accumulate stats" creates more issues and scenarios to think about. For instance, how long can you keep the Minor Leaguer on your main roster as long as he isn't accumulating stats? There's something I'm likely misunderstanding. Bottom line, as I'm understanding this, you are saying you can keep your Minor Leaguers on your farm team for 201 games instead of 200 as long as you recall the player before the day is out for his 201st game? Before Midnight Pacific Time.

[Chris - Capitals]

Jan 9, 2024 22:05:58 GMT -5 Nos - Sharks said:

Both Mercer & Tolvanen had played in their 201st game before being recalled. I don't see why accumulating stats matters? For these situations we are determining how long you can roster your Minor Leaguers on your farm team before they graduate to regular Player status. Adding a rule like "...no player may accumulate stats" creates more issues and scenarios to think about. For instance, how long can you keep the Minor Leaguer on your main roster as long as he isn't accumulating stats? There's something I'm likely misunderstanding. Bottom line, as I'm understanding this, you are saying you can keep your Minor Leaguers on your farm team for 201 games instead of 200 as long as you recall the player before the day is out for his 201st game? Before Midnight Pacific Time.

I think the accumulating stats comment is more for sending down prior to the 150 game mark, to ensure that a player being sent to the minors doesn't accumulate stats on the active roster for a what amounts to their 151st game played.

To me the rule is cut and dry the expectation has always been:
A. Player loses "prospect" status after playing 150 games. Said player cannot be sent down on the day of 151st game and forgo being subject to waivers, because yahoo wouldn't put the move through until the next day the player by our rules would no longer be a prospect as game 151 would make him a "Minor Leaguer". The move would have to be made at some point prior to game day of 151.

B. Player loses "Minor Leaguer" status after playing 200 games. As of the game day on said players 201st game he wouldn't be active within the main roster with a recall so a recall must take place prior to game day of 201.

I do agree with Colin-Avs point of "A situation could arise where a player is injured at 200 games for who knows how long, then gets activated before game 201 weeks later, no warning. And if you see it same day he's lost now? Seems silly" but this is such a minuscule use case that I'd be completely ok with if a player is injured at game 200, then game 201 being missed is perfectly fine as long as said player is recalled before 202.

[Daniel - Canucks]

Jan 9, 2024 21:40:19 GMT -5 Derrick - Senators said:

Mercer was recalled an hour after his 201st game started. Tolvanen wasn't recalled at all. Mercer did not accumulate stats for his team, Tolvanen would have. There is a bit of a difference there, however nuanced, and that is why we are having this discussion. Lots of good points have been made, but it would be just as easy to rewrite the rule to say "...no player may accumulate stats for his 151st, 201st etc. game" but again, seems convoluted.

I do agree the situations are a bit different. Tolvanen was recalled but only on Yahoo. I was just pointing out that both players were recalled after their 201st game started, but prior to the start of their 202nd game. Much more time had passed for Tolvanen though.

Not sure how Tolvanen would have accumulated stats...but that's besides the point. I just want to know when the latest I can recall Lucas Raymond legally. Haha. 😃

[Nos - Sharks]

Jan 10, 2024 17:04:32 GMT -5 Chris - Capitals said:

Jan 9, 2024 22:05:58 GMT -5 Nos - Sharks said:

Both Mercer & Tolvanen had played in their 201st game before being recalled. I don't see why accumulating stats matters? For these situations we are determining how long you can roster your Minor Leaguers on your farm team before they graduate to regular Player status. Adding a rule like "...no player may accumulate stats" creates more issues and scenarios to think about. For instance, how long can you keep the Minor Leaguer on your main roster as long as he isn't accumulating stats? There's something I'm likely misunderstanding. Bottom line, as I'm understanding this, you are saying you can keep your Minor Leaguers on your farm team for 201 games instead of 200 as long as you recall the player before the day is out for his 201st game? Before Midnight Pacific Time.

I think the accumulating stats comment is more for sending down prior to the 150 game mark, to ensure that a player being sent to the minors doesn't accumulate stats on the active roster for a what amounts to their 151st game played.

To me the rule is cut and dry the expectation has always been:
A. Player loses "prospect" status after playing 150 games. Said player cannot be sent down on the day of 151st game and forgo being subject to waivers, because yahoo wouldn't put the move through until the next day the player by our rules would no longer be a prospect as game 151 would make him a "Minor Leaguer". The move would have to be made at some point prior to game day of 151.

B. Player loses "Minor Leaguer" status after playing 200 games. As of the game day on said players 201st game he wouldn't be active within the main roster with a recall so a recall must take place prior to game day of 201.

I do agree with Colin-Avs point of "A situation could arise where a player is injured at 200 games for who knows how long, then gets activated before game 201 weeks later, no warning. And if you see it same day he's lost now? Seems silly" but this is such a minuscule use case that I'd be completely ok with if a player is injured at game 200, then game 201 being missed is perfectly fine as long as said player is recalled before 202.

Okay good, I'm not crazy. 😅 This is exactly how I thought the rules were, and had always been, before the Clayton Keller case. In our league, and it's always been the way we operate, you don't make moves for today. The moves you make today are for tomorrow. Maybe we could add an addendum to the rule to protect against injured players at 200 games to allow one extra game to observe his return to action? Otherwise, I agree with Chris, seems cut and dry.

[Colin - Avalanche]

Jan 9, 2024 19:12:55 GMT -5 Daniel - Canucks said:

I'm on the same page with Nos - Sharks here.

How I see it, if you want to look at it in real time, Tolvanen was recalled at 201 games played and was lost. Mercer was recalled at 201 games played and should also be lost.

As soon as your player hits that 200 games played mark, you need to recall that player ahead of their next game so they are on your Yahoo roster for that game. Not recall them before puck drop on the 201st game...not recall them in the middle of their 201st game. They need to be on your Yahoo roster FOR that 201st game. Seems pretty simple to me.

Same goes for prospects clocking over to minor league status after their 150th game played. If, for example, Scott - Maple Leafs wants to send down McTavish before he becomes a Minor Leaguer. He needs to send him down THE DAY BEFORE he plays his 151st game (so he is off his Yahoo Roster for that 151st game). Otherwise he could be accumulating stats for his team still.

Jan 9, 2024 8:21:26 GMT -5 Colin - Avalanche said:

A situation could arise where a player is injured at 200 games for who knows how long, then gets activated before game 201 weeks later, no warning. And if you see it same day he's lost now? Seems silly

This is the risk you take of leaving a Minor Leaguer on your Farm Team at 200 NHL games played. You better be on the pulse of that injured player and better be reading every single injury report ahead of his activation of becoming healthy if you want to keep him on your farm.

I get for sending down a player, you can accumulate stats. However, GMs have dropped a player but also played him the same day because the transaction doesn't process till the next day. He's accumulating stats after being dropped from your team. No one seems to have an issue with that. So why have different rules for minor leaguers being sent down at a particular game mark? 

As for having a pulse on an injury that's just unrealistic with how teams withhold injury news. They almost try to keep things secret. Even the last 2 days, Hill was activated off IR to play yesterday, then got put back on IR just before the game lol. Not sure where you find that info out. 

[Daniel - Canucks]

Jan 11, 2024 23:01:36 GMT -5 Colin - Avalanche said:

I get for sending down a player, you can accumulate stats. However, GMs have dropped a player but also played him the same day because the transaction doesn't process till the next day. He's accumulating stats after being dropped from your team. No one seems to have an issue with that. So why have different rules for minor leaguers being sent down at a particular game mark? 

Like Nos & Chris have already mentioned,  in our league, transactions are made for the following day. It's not like in our football league where the transaction is instantaneous.

Jan 11, 2024 23:01:36 GMT -5 Colin - Avalanche said:

As for having a pulse on an injury that's just unrealistic with how teams withhold injury news. They almost try to keep things secret. Even the last 2 days, Hill was activated off IR to play yesterday, then got put back on IR just before the game lol. Not sure where you find that info out. 

You do the best you can.  That's the risk you take for leaving a Minor Leaguer on your Farm Team at 200 NHL games played. Nos & Chris have even offered an addendum to the rulebook for this rare scenario.