Atlanta - Ottawa Trade

[Derrick - Senators]

To Atlanta:

Patrik Elias
Jakub Voracek
Tobias Enstrom
Marco Sturm
2010 1st Round Prospect

To Ottawa:

Ilya Kovalchuk
2009 2nd Round Waiver

[Hawks]

Sorry guys! I accept.

[Andrew]

Jun 19, 2007 0:58:00 GMT -5 Andrew said:

To Toronto:

Teemu Selanne
Rob Schremp
Jussi Jokinen
Anton Stralman
2009 1st round prospect pick.

[Derrick - Senators]

All better.

[Mark - Bruins]

Derrick, what incriminating photos do you have of Brad because this deal doesn't seem to make a lot of sense? Anyone else?

[Chris - Capitals]

Brads team has been struggling for the better part of its existence its purely a depth move. Getting Jackub Voracek and Enstrom are 2 very solid players with great potential. Elias is nothing to sneeze at even if he plays on the stingy NJ team add to that Sturm and a 1st round prospect its not a terrible trade.

He gets depth at D which was needed. Sometimes you have to trade the best player on your team to get better. I have a feeling the boards are going to blow up because Derrick just got stronger. But when you break it down its a good trade.

[Mark - Bruins]

Oct 13, 2008 17:46:46 GMT -5 Chris - Capitals said:

Brads team has been struggling for the better part of its existence its purely a depth move. Getting Jackub Voracek and Enstrom are 2 very solid players with great potential. Elias is nothing to sneeze at even if he plays on the stingy NJ team add to that Sturm and a 1st round prospect its not a terrible trade.

He gets depth at D which was needed. Sometimes you have to trade the best player on your team to get better. I have a feeling the boards are going to blow up because Derrick just got stronger. But when you break it down its a good trade.

You're trading a top 3 goal scorer in the league for a good rookie, a decent 2nd year defenseman who is the #3 guy on his team this year, a draft pick that probably won't produce in the league until 2015, and two has-beens. When you trade for an 80 point potential rookie, you don't give away a proven 50 goal scorer and 90 point player to get him.

Also, whats the point of having the two veterans? Atlanta will be one of the worst teams in the league now (if not THE worst), so why bother with guys that will only produce in the short term? He'll only be preventing himself from getting better draft picks. This isn't a major issue, just a side point I'm making. The point is that Kovy being traded for that bunch isn't a fair deal and IMMENSELY effects all the other teams in the league.

Also, considering the fact that you wanted Carey Price in a deal for Alex Semin way back when, I don't know how you'd think trading Voracek, Enstrom, and two vets would be enough for Kovy, who is a TON better than Semin.

[Mark - Bruins]

If nobody else says anything, then fine. But I just don't think the deal is any good.

Basically, I view it as another Semin-for-Thornton deal (no offense, but its deals like that make me doubt Chris' ability to judge other trades fairly) or Luongo for Stoll-Bryzgalov-Belfour deal (which was veto'd in the past - Feb '07 from the boards). Why was the Luongo deal veto'd? Its eerily similar to this current deal. Winnipeg would've gotten "great depth" at center will Stoll and veteran talent with Belfour while also nabbing a "top prospect" like Bryzgalov. Looking at it a year later, who wouldn't make that deal today? I sure would! Both those mentioned trades were terribly one sided and would've (or did, in the Thornton trade) created an imbalance for both teams (and have league-wide repercussions) involved in the trade.

[Chris - Capitals]

I love when my judgment gets questioned.


Kovy - broke the 90 pt plateau 3 years ago He is far from a constant 90 pt guy on a team such as Atlanta where he has no help hes not that great. You'll get your 45 or so goals from him. and 30 or so assists from his rebounds. So your looking at between 75-85pts from Kovy

In exchange for:

Enstrom: Considered to be the next offensive Dman great behind Phenuf and Green. 40pts by a rookie dman is nothing to cough at. And yes he is behind in the depth chart but look at the situation in Atl this year. He might have 1 of those guys in front of him come end of the season no way Schnieder is still in Atl after the trade deadline.

Voracek: A RW that will be playing with Nash as soon as next year. Put up 187 pts in 112 Q games. yea thats just a good rookie. He'll be a 90pt player as soon as 2 or 3 years down the road.

Elias: A aging but still good player in the league. He's a constant 20 goal guy and 50 pt player.

Sturm: Its obvious he was a throw in but he still picks up points.

1st round prospect: how much research have you done on this draft? there could be a kid in there that makes the NHL and puts up 60-70 pts season 1.

Your value for players is suspect at best after the deals ive heard of you offering around and ones that ive received from you myself.

You make the argument of Brad trading away Kovy and getting 2 vets. So you propose for him to get rookies and tank the season...Correct me if Im wrong but Im pretty sure tanking is against the rules.
With Kovy in your opinion he's going to be the worst team in the leauge so now with out him and adding Sturm and Elias hes not all of a sudden? He needs someone to place hold until his other kids are ready to produce. He got 2 very nice pieces to building a younger team in Enstrom and Voracek. who will both produce this year as well.

I could go on and on arguing with you about this but the simple fact is you wanted to get Kovy and couldn't. Now that someone your competing with for tops year in and year out got him your bitching. Like always.

Ps. Stop throwing me lopsided trade offers on Yahoo and here in hopes that ill accidently trade Rafalski or Semin to you for shit. If I wanted the crap that your offering me I'd have already accepted.

[Mark - Bruins]

Chris, I never meant to personally attack you (I even specifically mentioned that before), but you took it that way. I apologize for that and hope you weren't disrespected. I was merely stating that you seem to agree with this trade, when in the past the most criticized deals in the league (and the only deal ever to be veto'd) were made by you based on your current logic of "dealing for depth." I wasn't insulting you, I was just trying to show you my logic in this situation and was hoping you'd approach it with an open-mind and understand what I said. I guess I was wrong.

Also, you seem to be very eager to jump on the bandwagon of young players, almost to a fault. I'm not going to debate the talents of other players in this deal since nobody's mind will be changed. I'm just mentioning my belief that this trade is very one-sided, my logic for that belief, and was curious if any other GM felt the same way. Since this league has a veto rule, I don't see how I've done anything wrong.

Also, this post is about the current trade in question, not team building strategies. I never said anything about "tanking it." If you misinterpreted what I previously said, then you can send me a private message and I'll gladly elaborate. I prefer not to change the subject in this thread.

Finally, I did want Kovalchuk. Am I sad I didn't get him, yes, but I'm not upset or crying about it. This protest has nothing to do with jealously or any other such nonsense. I'm also hurt that after two years of trying to be a fair, level-headed, and open-minded GM that you'd think I was petty enough to post something like this out of anger. Again, I say that this league has a rule where we can veto lop-sided trades. We've done it in the past. Tell me what I did wrong when I exercised my league right to mention a trade I think is unfair. I've noticed that very few GMs are willing to be the first person to speak out against something, so I thought I'd start the ball rolling. I'm just a little disappointed that you'd try to turn this thread into a personal attack on me. I expected something more civilized from you.

[Mark - Bruins]

PS
I'm not saying that "dealing for depth" trades should all be veto'd. It's a logical trade strategy and its fine in almost all situations. I'm just saying the players acquired in this deal are not fair for Kovalchuk and a 2nd rd waiver pick.

Heck, Elias himself is at best a 2nd round waiver pick, Sturm is a waiver-wire caliber player (taken in one of the final rounds and seven picks from being last of the waiver draft), and the 2010 pick will probably be in the range of 10th -12th, which in the past has taken multiple years for players taken in that area to develop and no guarantees they'll be any good. Basically, the deal is: Kovalchuk for Voracek + Enstrom + unknown prospect of unknown talent that will produce at an unknown time. Is that really fair for a guy who is consistently a top 5 goal scorer in the entire league? Does that deal sound like it should even consider a veto discussion?

[Nos - Sharks]

First things first, I don't find the trade to be that bad but it's a bad trade nonetheless. Some quality young players coming back to Brad's team but for the superstar on his team? He could have commanded more. It was also silly of him to accept a deal so soon after he sent out that "Rumor on the street is..." PM to all of the GM's of the league. You could have commanded much, much more, it would have become a bidding war. So...not sharp management. I don't find the deal veto worthy though but would just like to laugh at Derrick for making this kind of deal after he yelled at me for "taking advantage of managers in the league". Funny stuff, this trade still won't get him into the playoff finals though.

[Chris - Capitals]

Mark,
No where did I veer off topic I merely show you why the trade isn't a bad one like you think. I'm not going to argue back and forth with you.

[Hawks]

Where are the other GM's. I find it funny that its the other top 2 contenders that are bitching about this trade. And NOS u say i coulda got so much more, u messaged me an offer and i woulda taken a pile of shit over that so I'd rather not here about how you woulda given me so much more... Downfall of my team Mark? yea i lost 90 points in kovalchuk, and i gained alot more. 2 promising players, depth at lw and d. Buffalo, columbus, calgary? any of you i'd like ur input cuz I wanna hear from people that arent gonna bitch about the trade just cuz derrek got kovalchuk.

[Robyn - Flames]

I got a bone to pick with you too Brad. Why didn't I get the "Rumour on the Street..." PM?

And what kind of name is that anyway? ...Brad...pffff....it only has four letters...

What nerve, the General Manager of a hockey team making a projection about a players future skill level and point production.

Oh man, I can't wait 39 months to see who eats their hat on this one.

But seriously, not a terrible deal at all, its possible he could have squeezed more out of another GM, but ATL's getting two prospects with great potential --- even Nostradamus doesn't think its the end of the world

[Hawks]

I sent it to NOS and Phil mainly, I'm pretty sure Phil is dead...and NOS offered me 2 peanuts and a cupcake....

[Chris - Capitals]

Oct 14, 2008 10:32:39 GMT -5 Robyn - Flames said:

I got a bone to pick with you too Brad. Why didn't I get the "Rumour on the Street..." PM?

And what kind of name is that anyway? ...Brad...pffff....it only has four letters...

What nerve, the General Manager of a hockey team making a projection about a players future skill level and point production.

Oh man, I can't wait 39 months to see who eats their hat on this one.

But seriously, not a terrible deal at all, its possible he could have squeezed more out of another GM, but ATL's getting two prospects with great potential --- even Nostradamus doesn't think its the end of the world

Thanks for that I just died laughing at work on this one

[Andrew]

I'm with Nos on this one. I don't like the trade from where Brad is standing, but I wouldn't veto it either. I like Voracek quite a bit but he'd be lucky if he ever amounts to anything remotely close to Kovalchuk. And Enstrom's got potential as well. But if Atlanta (NAFHL Atlanta that is) is in a rebuilding phase, I don't know why they would want to center a trade around Elias, a fringe keeper at best. Also, Ottawa's 1st round prospect pick will probably not net too much, even in a deep draft. I would have just kept the 2nd round waiver if the option was available.

Brad could have almost certainly gotten more, but we all value players differently than each other so what can you do. I think it will take quite a while for Atlanta to come out the winner in this trade, if ever. That said, this trade isn't veto-worthy.

[Nos - Sharks]

For the record I offered Brad (a first offer to test the waters) Parise, Bieksa and Staal (whom he was interested in). I'm not saying I would have necessarily given you more than Derrick but you could have commanded much more had you actually done your job as a GM and shopped around your team's superstar. I also don't think the deal I offered was a bad one, sour grapes...

[Krzysztof - NAFHDL Predators]

Hey...I replied with an offer too...didn't think it was too bad..but I was definitely willing to negiotate.....seems like no one wants to hear my offers anymore (my sour grapes)