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Post by Nos - Sharks on Oct 27, 2008 23:57:56 GMT -5
GM's Derrick and Chris vs. Fairplay
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what I intend to display here is a blatant disregard for the NAFHL's fairplay rules. It had occurred to me earlier than this post would indicate but I can't sit idly by anymore without some restitution or at the very least for some of the other managers who weren't aware of this atrocity to see it for the first time in all its ugliness. Witness exhibit A:
March 6, 2008 at 11:40 AM EST
To Winnipeg:
2008 1st Round Prospect (from Columbus) 2009 2nd Round Prospect 2009 9th Round Waiver Sheldon Souray Valterri Filppula
To Ottawa:
Peter Budaj Jhonas Enroth Jakub Voracek Mike Green
This trade was made near the trade deadline. One team (Senators) who was going to be fighting for the championship and another team (Jets) who was long out of the playoff picture. Why then would Chris be giving up so much quality youth? When I first saw this trade I immediately thought Chris had been hosed for all he was worth. Green, Voracek and Enroth, three quality young players and Budaj, one adequate goalie who could be kept for free. In fact, all of these players could be kept for free and were kept for free. Would you disagree that these were quality young players?
What did Chris get in return? A first round prospect pick from Columbus, a quality club who wouldn't fetch more than a 6th overall selection. A second round selection from Derrick, which would garner...let's see, no better than a 20th overall selection. A 9th round waiver pick...huh? A ninth round waiver pick? Why? That's junk, judging by this year's draft very few managers even used their 9th round selection. Sheldon Souray, a somewhat talented defenseman but someone more desirable than a young Mike Green? I think not. The only quality piece he got back was one Valterri Filppula whose prospect/minor leaguer status would expire the following season.
Exhibit B:
June 5, 2008 at 7:43 PM EST
To Winnipeg:
Mike Green 2008 3rd Round Prospect (from Ottawa)
To Ottawa:
Valterri Filppula 2008 2nd Round Prospect (from Winnipeg)
Another trade made by the two managers in question four days after the keeper submission when trade talks were allowed to resume. Isn't this strange? Why the sudden change of heart? Why trade for a player and then trade back using the same pieces? Was it because Derrick felt pressure to perform in the playoffs and needed some backup, a quality defenseman to put him over the top? That didn't happen though, did it Derrick? If this is untrue what logical reason is there for this swap? Did something change in the three months since the first deal was made to lower the value of one Mike Green and heighten the value of one Valterri Filppula? If so, I certainly don't see it, please enlighten me because I can't call this a fair trade either, only this time Chris is taking Derrick for all he's worth. That brings me to exhibit C:
August 11, 2008 at 7:59 PM EST
Pittsburgh receives:
Valterri Filppula
Ottawa receives:
4th Round Waiver Pick 2009
Derrick trades away Valterri Filppula to Pittsburgh for a 4th round waiver pick, why? Valterri Filppula, a player he certainly had to see something big in since Mike Green was a hot commodity and had Derrick done his job like I know he does, he would have gotten a lot more for him. So why let him go for pennies? Did Derrick feel guilt pushing through his subconscious, wanting to get rid of all the pieces involved in a dirty deal? Was it because Derrick and Chris had a prearranged agreement at the time of the first deal prior to the playoffs that stated Derrick would trade Green back to Chris for Filppula after the playoffs were over? Is this a case of collusion? I personally think the evidence is overwhelming, some may claim it's circumstantial evidence but it simply does not add up and I will forever be under the impression that something shady went down.
What does the NAFHL think?
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Post by Mark - Bruins on Oct 28, 2008 11:49:40 GMT -5
I don't want to accuse anyone of anything before I hear all sides of the story. I'd like to hear thoughts from Chris and Derrick about swapping Green and Filppula like that. All personal bias aside, I think its a legitimate question given the circumstances and time frame of these two deals and I think it should be answered.
I remember thinking how odd it was to trade away and then trade back for virtually the same players. This is especially odd considering Chris loves all things Washington Capitols and at the time I found it hard to believe that he'd trade away Green (who was, as Chris told me in trade talks, virtually untouchable or demanded a really high return).
On a side note, I remember in the past that Ryan suggested "rental trades" where players would return to their original teams at the end of the season, but that idea was rejected. Derrick, given the above circumstances, since it seems you decided to rent a player from another manager for a playoff run, can I do the same?
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Post by Robyn - Flames on Oct 28, 2008 19:08:31 GMT -5
The prosecution (/persecution...hehe) rests. I will allow 48 hours for the defandant(s) to either present their case or hire Matlock.
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Post by Phil - Blue Jackets on Oct 28, 2008 19:37:38 GMT -5
Managers have the right to manage their team as they see fit. The only "crime" here is the fact that Winnepeg is a moron, a fact demonstrated on many occasions. But, that is irrelevant. I find these trade analyses that somehow posit that these trades should be vetoed with a majority opinion of their merit ridiculous. I am especially sick of this phenomenon of post mortem trade analysis.
The bottom line is that we can all pretty safely assume that no manager runs more than one team in this league. Given that and the fact that there is no monetary prize for placing, what possible reason would there be for collusionary, the only vetoable kind in my opinion, trades? The idea that this was a rental player trade is null and void also because all of the involved players sat on Derrick's farm.
On a rental player side note, I never rejected the idea of rented player trades. If the owners work out a deal where in the language the traded players return to the original owner after the season or negotiated time period has expired perhaps and most likely with an added bonus(a couple picks for example), that is their right.
In closing, Winnepeg is ignorant and without any ethical or moral code whatsoever. He should be replaced immediately, not because of these trades, but rather because he has shown himself to be a contemptable and unethical ponce.
Phil for President.
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Post by Robyn - Flames on Oct 31, 2008 9:57:36 GMT -5
Derrick are you really going to ignore this? Are these types of deals where players return in the offseason allowed? What about keeper spot manipulation?
Proposal:
To San Jose:
Spezza
To Calgary:
1st Rd Prospect 1st Rd Waiver 5th Rd Waiver
I get some nice picks for the offseason, knowing I'm not going to win this year.
Then I'll just flip the 5th Rd pick back in the off-season for Spezza.
Is this the precedent we really want to be setting?
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Post by Mark - Bruins on Oct 31, 2008 14:36:40 GMT -5
I really like the part where Chris and Derrick have visted/logged into the site multiple times, yet still ignore the request of other GMs to give an answer to this thread.
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Oct 31, 2008 14:53:08 GMT -5
I really like the part where Chris and Derrick have visted/logged into the site multiple times, yet still ignore the request of other GMs to give an answer to this thread. Seems incriminating enough to me. If you were innocent wouldn't you want your name cleared?
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Post by Chris - Capitals on Oct 31, 2008 17:10:00 GMT -5
Based on your responses you've all decided what you think happened so whats it matter.
I love how this comes up after Nos sends me an offer for Green and I reply back Greens not going anywhere.
Yes trades were made where I got Green back could it be that I traded him away and then wanted him back and it just so happens that after Filp's playoffs that Der wanted him back as well so it just worked out?
And Phil seriously man fucking get off your horse you lost out on Luongo get over it. Your personal attacks at me are old and simply childish
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Post by Mark - Bruins on Oct 31, 2008 20:01:23 GMT -5
and it just so happens that after Filp's playoffs that Der wanted him back as well so it just worked out? Not in what is basically a 1 for 1 deal. A person doesn't give someone up and then immediately ask for him back in what is essentially the same deal unless something odd is happening. Filppula scored 11 points in 22 games during the playoffs. Its not like he lit up the league and won the Conn Smythe. Meanwhile, Mike Green outscored Filppula in the regular season and was the seventh highest scoring defenseman in the league last year. As a 22 year old. In his second full season. Based on his past trade offers to me and from his past history of trading, how does Derrick trade away a proven 50+ point defenseman for another young guy with a mediocre playoff run right after trading for him in what many people thought was a pretty one-sided deal?
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Post by Mark - Bruins on Oct 31, 2008 20:16:06 GMT -5
PS
Chris, I'm trying not to be judgmental, but your post/tone/argument seems to be more like your trying to convince us of a story (or you're trying to suggest an excuse) rather than stating facts. People don't trade a player away and then get him back in virtually the exact same trade just a little while later. Trades don't end with "happily ever after," but the way you explain things, your story does.
Also, you still didn't explain why did you trade away Green in the first place if you like Washington players so much (they're your favorite team, I think) and previously suggested to me in talks that it would be difficult for you to trade him away.
Take a look at this from another perspective. Would it seem odd if at the trade deadline last year, I traded away Dion Phaneuf (+ one or two of my better farm team players) to the Sharks for Wojtek Wolski (as well as two late prospect picks and a 9th round waiver pick) and then two months later, during the summer and after the playoffs, I'd get Phaneuf back for just Wolski? That's basically what a few of us managers have seen happen in this trade between you and Derrick. Would Phaneuf for Wolski seem fair to you considering how many times you asked me about Phaneuf and how I mentioned he's probably not going to ever be traded from my team? Would you at least be suspicious of something strange about that trade?
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Post by Chris - Capitals on Oct 31, 2008 20:57:18 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting anything either way I was just making a statement. Everything I do in this league gets analyzed about 10 times over so I gave up arguing anything with you guys. Green sat on Der's farm all playoffs for him. So he didn't add anything to his playoff push Nos. Green was moved cause I didn't have the room for him on my roster and I got something for him. I later changed my mind and inquired about him were Derrick said I want Filppula back which was done. at the deadline last year I needed room for Green and didnt have it with the players that I want to keep Der gave me that offer and i took it. Later in the summer when he realized he'd have to call him up making him go through waivers was when the trade was made.
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Oct 31, 2008 22:06:11 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting anything either way I was just making a statement. Everything I do in this league gets analyzed about 10 times over so I gave up arguing anything with you guys. Green sat on Der's farm all playoffs for him. So he didn't add anything to his playoff push Nos. Green was moved cause I didn't have the room for him on my roster and I got something for him. I later changed my mind and inquired about him were Derrick said I want Filppula back which was done. at the deadline last year I needed room for Green and didnt have it with the players that I want to keep Der gave me that offer and i took it. Later in the summer when he realized he'd have to call him up making him go through waivers was when the trade was made. I'm just gonna go ahead and say it...this makes no sense at all. None. Nothing else I really want to say. PS: Yes I've inquired about Green in the past, I've inquired about many players from Phaneuf to Pronger. It had no bearing on me wanting the truth out of this shady business.
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Post by Chris - Capitals on Oct 31, 2008 23:46:29 GMT -5
Thats just it you dont want the truth you want to hear that me and Derrick were somehow cheating or tilting the game in Der's favor. Because no matter what is said here nothings going to be believed unless its that. I say what happened and you come back with it made no sense so whatever fuck it. Im done explaining every move that is made on my roster.
And the fact that this is being brought up is mind boggling to me. I mean Green spent the whole time on Derricks farm team not once did he move up from the trade deadline on. He was on his farm did not impact a single week or day in his games but yet its still be considered a rental? How? I could understand the suspicion if Green caused him to blow through the playoffs or even if his points added to a week that caused him to get into the next round but the fact that this trade had absolutely no impact in the league and is still getting questioned like this is insane.
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Post by Chris - Capitals on Oct 31, 2008 23:54:24 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting anything either way I was just making a statement. Everything I do in this league gets analyzed about 10 times over so I gave up arguing anything with you guys. Green sat on Der's farm all playoffs for him. So he didn't add anything to his playoff push Nos. Green was moved cause I didn't have the room for him on my roster and I got something for him. I later changed my mind and inquired about him were Derrick said I want Filppula back which was done. at the deadline last year I needed room for Green and didnt have it with the players that I want to keep Der gave me that offer and i took it. Later in the summer when he realized he'd have to call him up making him go through waivers was when the trade was made. I'm just gonna go ahead and say it...this makes no sense at all. None. Nothing else I really want to say. PS: Yes I've inquired about Green in the past, I've inquired about many players from Phaneuf to Pronger. It had no bearing on me wanting the truth out of this shady business. If it had no bearing this why is this coming up now almost 5 months later?
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Nov 1, 2008 2:14:37 GMT -5
I'm just gonna go ahead and say it...this makes no sense at all. None. Nothing else I really want to say. PS: Yes I've inquired about Green in the past, I've inquired about many players from Phaneuf to Pronger. It had no bearing on me wanting the truth out of this shady business. If it had no bearing this why is this coming up now almost 5 months later? ...because it took time for all of these events to unfold? This didn't happen as soon as the initial trade took place. Plus I only now had the desire to write up the post. Also, it doesn't matter that it didn't happen to impact the playoffs, the point is that it could have. What we're trying to find out here is the intentions of each manager. You have to admit it doesn't look good on paper...
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Nov 1, 2008 3:08:44 GMT -5
To illustrate my point even further here's what I'm gonna do...this is an official public offer to Chris for Green in relation to the Derrick deal last year, only I'm going to offer the same for just Green and not Green, Voracek, Enroth, and Budaj.
San Jose offers:
GP G A +/- PIM PPP SHP GWG SOG Sheldon Souray: 8 2 4 0 4 4 0 0 16 Kevin Bieksa: 8 2 5 2 9 4 1 0 13
GP G A +/- PIM PPP SHP GWG SOG Valterri Filppula: 11 2 4 -1 6 0 0 0 20 Ryane Clowe: 11 4 3 -1 9 6 0 1 34
2008 1st Round Prospect (from Columbus) 2010 1st Round Prospect
2009 2nd Round Prospect 2009 2nd Round Prospect (from Pittsburgh)
2009 9th Round Waiver 2009 9th Round Waiver
Nothing has changed since the Derrick deal to increase Green's value. Also, for the record, I know this deal won't be accepted so don't all go "oh he's so bitter he can't have him" because I know this won't be accepted. This is simply to illustrate my point that something shady must have gone down for this to even make sense because this is an offer for Green only and not for other pieces Derrick received in the blowout deal. In the end it makes no sense if Chris doesn't get Green back.
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Post by Mark - Bruins on Nov 4, 2008 16:05:38 GMT -5
So Derrick, any thoughts? I know by now you must've read this thread.
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Nov 4, 2008 19:17:37 GMT -5
There is no word out of the Ottawa camp, only offering up this statement to the Ottawa Sun:
"This is just another lame attempt in a long line of petty drivel by headstrong managers. We [Ottawa] seem to have a bullseye on our chest. The fact is, these unprovoked attacks on the Senator organization are classless and very unprofessional. No league rules were broken, manipulated, or taken advantage of, period. There really isn't a basis for a legitimate argument or complaint and quite frankly, we as an organization have far greater concerns at this present time."
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Nov 4, 2008 22:20:27 GMT -5
LOL @ pleading ignorance.
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Nov 4, 2008 22:22:45 GMT -5
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