Mike
Second Liner
50%
Posts: 297
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Post by Mike on Jan 17, 2014 21:39:00 GMT -5
Avalanche Trade- Nazem Kadri 2014 2nd Entry(Bos) for Boston's Michal Neuvirth Matthew Dumba 2015 3rd Entry
I accept
Avalanche assign both players to Lake Erie
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Jan 17, 2014 22:13:27 GMT -5
Avalanche Trade- Nazem Kadri 2014 2nd Entry(Bos) for Boston's Michal Neuvirth Matthew Dumba 2015 3rd Entry I accept Avalanche assign both players to Lake Erie Michal Neuvirth can not be assigned directly to the farm because he is a Minor Leaguer.
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Mike
Second Liner
50%
Posts: 297
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Post by Mike on Jan 17, 2014 22:37:46 GMT -5
i read the rule book and it says they cannot go directly from one payers starting roster to the others farm team, doesnt say anything about going from farm team to farm team. copied this from the rule book.... L) No Regular or Minor League player may be traded directly from ones starting roster to another manager’s farm roster.
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Jan 18, 2014 3:28:19 GMT -5
i read the rule book and it says they cannot go directly from one payers starting roster to the others farm team, doesnt say anything about going from farm team to farm team. copied this from the rule book.... L) No Regular or Minor League player may be traded directly from ones starting roster to another manager’s farm roster. You forgot to cite the most important part of the rule. Those necessary waiver regulations being:
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Post by Mark - Bruins on Jan 18, 2014 10:15:19 GMT -5
i read the rule book and it says they cannot go directly from one payers starting roster to the others farm team, doesnt say anything about going from farm team to farm team. copied this from the rule book.... L) No Regular or Minor League player may be traded directly from ones starting roster to another manager’s farm roster. You forgot to cite the most important part of the rule. Those necessary waiver regulations being: First: I accept the trade Second: this objection is a joke. Since when can't we trade farm players to another person's farm team? The only time minor league players need to clear waivers is when he's being sent from the MAIN roster to the FARM roster: THOSE are the exact "necessary waiver regulations" you like to quote. Neuvirth isn't on my yahoo roster, he's on my farm team. I cannot recall the exact trade, but the "5L Rule" was put in place because someone tried to trade a minor league player directly from a yahoo roster to another team's farm roster (because the second team's yahoo roster was full). Neuvirth isn'tt being "sent" to the minors. He's already there. He's just being assigned to another minor league team. There's no way you can question this trade as long as Mike is willing to release players from his farm team to make room for Neuvirth & Dumba.
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Post by Mark - Bruins on Jan 18, 2014 10:23:28 GMT -5
Also of note, Derrick, you're the one who added Neuvirth onto Colorado's main roster. Given that I never officially accepted the trade until now, Mike should have some leeway & time in making open roster spots available on his farm club to allow Dumba & Neuvirth to be directly assigned a spot there. We've handled multiple trades in the past where this occurrence has happened without being objected to and don't understand why every little nuance is being fought about... maybe you're afraid Kadri will give me that boost to get ahead of you in the yahoo standings
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Mike
Second Liner
50%
Posts: 297
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Post by Mike on Jan 18, 2014 12:35:13 GMT -5
Yes I understand the waiver rule for minor leaguers, but that rule doesn't state anywhere that it includes trading someone from farm team to farm team. So in my defense when I read the rule and it didn't mention anywhere that waivers affected farm team to farm team trades I then posted the trade. Also to add to the spot being open on my farm team for him, I had opene up te 2 spots on my farm team for them but once Neuvirth was added to my main roster I had to send Tarasenko to the minors so I could sign Boedker back to my main roster.
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Jan 18, 2014 15:35:57 GMT -5
We haven't been able to sign/trade minor leaguers directly to one's farm (regardless of where the minor leaguer is coming from) since like 2009/2010. You know, back when the league (you were one of the biggest advocates, Mark) continually got pissed off when I would always do it. So, like always, a rule was implemented to prevent it and meet the desires of the league. Without it in place, all sorts of waiver manipulation occurs. I am pretty sure the entire rest of the league is aware of this. Here is one of many trades that have occurred that show it: To Washington: Devan Dubnyk Adam Henrique Damien Brunner To San Jose: Cory Schneider I accept. Brunner and Dubnyk were both minor leaguers on San Jose's farm team traded to Washington's main roster. The only prospect (Henrique) was assigned to the farm. Instead of criticzing me and the rulebook (since we have determined it is impossible to detail every single aspect of fantasy hockey in it), take some responsibility and learn the league in which you are a part of. I don't blame Mike since he is still learning the ropes, but you should have known better Mark, especially since you initially argued for the rules to be as such in the first place. As for the trade in question, the only difference is where Neuvirth is assigned. It has nothing to do with Kadri or your dismal chances at winning the league title.
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Post by Mark - Bruins on Jan 18, 2014 17:12:28 GMT -5
We haven't been able to sign/trade minor leaguers directly to one's farm (regardless of where the minor leaguer is coming from) since like 2009/2010. You know, back when the league (you were one of the biggest advocates, Mark) continually got pissed off when I would always do it. So, like always, a rule was implemented to prevent it and meet the desires of the league. Without it in place, all sorts of waiver manipulation occurs. Like I said, I can't remember the exact deal, but it was agreed you can't directly trade a minor league player from one's main roster directly to another team's farm club (aka trading apples for oranges). It was considered circumventing the rules & not allowed. This trade involves moving a minor league player (already on the farm team) being traded to another farm team (aka trading oranges for oranges). By definition, waivers occur when you move from the main roster to the farm roster. Neuvirth was never on the main roster, hence "normal waiver regulations" don't apply to this deal. I'm just trying to make this argument since one of the reasons we made the deal is that all players involved are farm guys & can mature on our farm teams without using keeper slots. If you persist on making an argument on the deal, I say we put up a league vote.
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Post by Tyler - Jets on Jan 18, 2014 19:36:21 GMT -5
This is a weird situation that arises from time to time. Mark is there a trade you can quote where a minor leaguer was traded farm team to farm team?? Because to me farm team to farm team makes sense.
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Jan 18, 2014 19:48:34 GMT -5
No, it is not "oranges for oranges." On both teams, Kadri is a prospect and thus can be recalled/sent to the farm and subsequently kept for free without testing waivers. However, on Boston, Neuvirth can not be recalled/sent to the farm for free, (where he was rostered before the trade) and therefore can not be used without testing waivers. In order to enjoy this privilege, Neuvirth must be rostered on the Colorado big club (as he would have to be on Boston in order to be used), testing waivers before being sent down. It is a form of waiver manipulation. If it were "oranges for oranges" it would be trading a prospect for a prospect, not a prospect for a minor leaguer.
Please cite the trade you are referring to, because to my knowledge it has not occurred at all since the rule change.
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Jan 18, 2014 22:54:19 GMT -5
I agree with Derrick 100%, I'm stunned this is even an issue being debated it was so clear...and for years too.
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Post by Markus - Hurricanes on Jan 19, 2014 6:27:17 GMT -5
Why not just send Neuvirth down tbh, I'd say it's very unlikely he even gets claimed.
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Post by Mark - Bruins on Jan 19, 2014 15:33:17 GMT -5
First off, I want to clear one thing up: I agree that if Neuvirth was on my yahoo roster & was traded to Colorado, he would be subject to clearing waivers before being sent to Mike's farm team... but that's not the situation Straight out of the horse's mouth: Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the purpose and/or benefit of the rule preventing minor leaguers from being signed directly to the farm? In addition to what Mark has already explained, the rule is in place to prevent managers from trading minor leaguers directly from a main roster to the farm to circumvent the waiver system and subsequently games played eligibility rule. Additionally, what you are being "punished" for Brad is the fact that you did not follow league (or Yahoo) protocol. In order for a player to be subject to waivers, he must be on your main roster for a minimum of one day (update). Although Derrick posted this in regards to a different matter, I would consider these statements indirectly affect the situation at hand. Mike & I are making arguments that Derrick has fully supported in the past (just one month ago!). Derrick even admits the rules in place prevent the trade of a minor league player from the main roster directly to the farm team. This issue is about trading a minor league player from the farm team directly onto another farm team, which isn't explicitly addressed. Derrick states that a player is subject to waivers only if they're on the yahoo roster for an entire day. Neuvirth was never even on my yahoo roster & therefore "normal waiver regulations" don't apply to him when he's being traded from my farm team to another farm team. Nothing is being circumvented since Neuvirth was never on a main roster being sent to a farm roster. I literally don't understand the reasoning of why Derrick placed Neuvirth on Mike's main roster when he was traded to Mike's farm team. How can a prospect be traded directly to another team's farm team, but an eligible minor league player cannot? If Farm Team A trades a prospect to Farm Team B, the prospect can directly go to the farm team. Yet, Derrick argues that if Team A trades a minor league farm player to Team B, the player must first go to Main Team B and only after can he be sent to Farm Team B. I don't understand if both a prospect & minor league player start at the same place (on Farm Team A), why is the minor league player forced onto Main Team B instead of going to Farm Team B? Conversely, why isn't the prospect traded onto Main Team B and then sent to Farm Team B? If I am wrong in my logic, I would appreciate it if someone could clarify where my thinking went wrong. Although I have memory of a similar issue in the past, I could not find an example on these boards. As such, I can only present the logic of my arguments and defer judgement among my peers... also, Markus, I think it would be good to clarify this issue so it's not repeated in the future because, in the past, I've gone into other trade negotiations (both trying to send away & acquire minor league players) assuming this was true.
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Jan 19, 2014 21:12:56 GMT -5
Although Derrick posted this in regards to a different matter, I would consider these statements indirectly affect the situation at hand. Mike & I are making arguments that Derrick has fully supported in the past (just one month ago!). Derrick even admits the rules in place prevent the trade of a minor league player from the main roster directly to the farm team. This issue is about trading a minor league player from the farm team directly onto another farm team, which isn't explicitly addressed. You pretty much highlighted the problem with your argument in your opening line. How can you attempt to use a quote from me on a different matter in regards to the issue at hand? Of course my quote is going to pertain to the trading/signing of a minor league player from a roster/free agency because that is what Brad asked about, not whether or not a minor leaguer could be traded from farm to farm team. Never did I say "only" in anything that I posted detailing this situation. Ever. It has already been explained to you above. But consider this. Why would a minor leaguer NOT be allowed to be signed directly to the farm yet BE allowed to be traded directly to the farm (from anywhere)? Just because a prospect and a minor leaguer "start at the same place" does not mean they enjoy the same privileges. Take for instance a prospect on the main roster, and a minor leaguer on the main roster. Are you suggesting that because they start from the same place that neither must test waivers? The current debate is no different. You can't find it, because it has never happened. Also, there really isn't anything to clarify. Everyone else seems to be aware and I even provided at least one concrete example to support the rule. The only one who seems to be confused here is you.
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