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Post by Tyler - Jets on Feb 14, 2015 11:06:25 GMT -5
Winnipeg trades: Bryan Little, Jiri Hudler, Erik Johnson, Josh Anderson, Joe Colborne, Simone Despres, Eric Comrie 2015 2nd round waiver
To Detroit for: Alex Steen, Marion Gaborik, Jeff Carter, Andrei Markov
I Accept Release Marco Scandella and Marcus Johansson
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Post by Jeff - Red Wings on Feb 14, 2015 11:42:12 GMT -5
I accept
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Feb 14, 2015 12:45:30 GMT -5
Winnipeg trades: Bryan Little, Jiri Hudler, Erik Johnson, Josh Anderson, Joe Colborne, Simone Despres, Eric Comrie 2015 2nd round waiver To Detroit for: Alex Steen, Marion Gaborik, Jeff Carter, Andrei Markov I Accept Release Marco Scandella and Marcus Johansson Hilarious and obvious collusion, veto this right away and put both managers on alert for this insult.
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Post by Tyler - Jets on Feb 14, 2015 14:01:33 GMT -5
I am getting tired of you calling out my integrity as a GM. There is no collusion the reason this league has gotten stale in trade market is the "top" teams over value everyone on their team and under value all the players on other teams. Every time I make a deal to challenge the top tier you call me out. EVERYONE EVALUATES players differently. What will make this satisfactory in your eyes Nos?? You want me to switch the waiver to my first round or add Jacob De La Rose?? There have been more laughable deals for rentals then this. Steen is the only for sure guy I want to keep. Honestly you have to relax on calling out other GM's integrity. I enjoy this league and do this FOR FUN. I am trying to compete not back stab and swindle.
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Post by Jeff - Red Wings on Feb 14, 2015 14:01:38 GMT -5
Please explain why...
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Post by Jeff - Red Wings on Feb 14, 2015 14:03:49 GMT -5
You had your chance for Steen
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Feb 15, 2015 0:18:26 GMT -5
I am getting tired of you calling out my integrity as a GM. There is no collusion the reason this league has gotten stale in trade market is the "top" teams over value everyone on their team and under value all the players on other teams. Every time I make a deal to challenge the top tier you call me out. EVERYONE EVALUATES players differently. What will make this satisfactory in your eyes Nos?? You want me to switch the waiver to my first round or add Jacob De La Rose?? There have been more laughable deals for rentals then this. Steen is the only for sure guy I want to keep. Honestly you have to relax on calling out other GM's integrity. I enjoy this league and do this FOR FUN. I am trying to compete not back stab and swindle. When have I ever called for a veto? Never? This is blatant and obvious. I do this for fun as well, but it stops being fun when two managers collude for better placement, whether it's because Jeff wants to intentionally tank, which is against the rules, or not you gain an unfair advantage any way you slice it. You're giving up your trash for gold, playoff gold or not, it's gold, let's analyze... Winnipeg trades: Bryan Little, Jiri Hudler, Erik Johnson, Josh Anderson, Joe Colborne, Simone Despres, Eric Comrie2015 2nd round waiver To Detroit for: Alex Steen, Marion Gaborik, Jeff Carter, Andrei Markov The bolded players build the case by themselves really, these players are garbage, they're droppable, Josh Anderson? A fourth round pick, 1 assist and a -1 in 6 NHL games, 14 points in 46 AHL games, never a PPG player in the OHL, why is he even deserving of a roster spot? Joe 'soon to be a minor leaguer' Colborne? The guy with 21 points over 37 games and barely registering a shot per game? Why is he so coveted? Simon Despres? Another soon to be minor leaguer who has just 15 points in 52 games, barely a shot per game, 1 power play point. Eric Comrie is the only player you can say could garner future value but that's only because there are still so many question marks and time on his side. He's a pretty small goalie, let's face it his World Jr. stats are inflated due to the Canadian behemoth and his WHL stats remain good, not outstanding though. He's got a lot of competition in front of him in Winnipeg. The point is, why would somebody actually want these players? You can find comparable players for free by doing a little research. So then I get thinking, why were they added? To pad the look of the deal? Do these extra moving pieces make it appear as if more value is being cultivated? You're gaining a minimum of 3 keeper quality players, if not 4. You're giving up zero, Bryan Little and Jiri Hudler are quintessential waiver draft players and they're the best things coming back? They're adequate depth players and nowhere near the value of players going the other way. You may argue Bryan Little is having a pretty good season, but the players going the other way are not only superior, but have a history of quality play to back it up with. Little has a lot more to prove. Erik Johnson is injured for a prolonged time, 6 more weeks or so, he had knee surgery and his numbers weren't exactly eye popping. Is he at all useful to Detroit? Not one bit. Could he be a keeper player for Detroit? I'm not sure, I haven't looked over how bad Detroit's team is at length, but if he is a keeper player for him that would be embarrassing. Another tank maneuver? The pick is inconsequential to what's going on. Let's focus on the players Winnipeg gets. Alexander Steen, Top 20 ranked overall player. Marian Gaborik, multi winger, top line player on the Kings playing with Kopitar, shortened season with injury but numbers are strong, has 7 in his last 10. After a slow start Jeff Carter is ripping it up again, 10 points in his last 9. Andrei Markov, 7th in the league in power play D scoring, ranked 17th for defensemen. How can this be seen any other way? It's an egregious exchange of power.
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Post by Jeff - Red Wings on Feb 15, 2015 16:49:18 GMT -5
Ok so maybe our definition of "tanking" is different because everyday I set my lineup, making sure I have all my players in the lineup every night. If i had my top guys sitting on the bench and not paying attention to it then yes you would have a point. I think that Steen and Little are a wash. Steen has 19 G 29 A for 48 P and Little has 21 G 25 A for 46 P. Now if you look at my team I clearly need to get younger and to fill my Grand Rapids roster up since I only have 11 players out of 19. Now like Tyler said, everyone evaluates talent differently. Josh Anderson has just started his NHL career so giving his stats as of right now i think doesnt mean a thing. Living in London and watching him play his OHL career, I do think he deserves a roster spot and can help my team in the future. Joe Colborne, Im sorry but what the hell does shots per game have to do anything about fantasy? ? He has good upside, on a up and coming team. Simon Despres is 23 yrs old on a very deep Dman core in Pitt but will get a chance to play more in a few years. Eric Comrie, again what does his size have to do with his fantasy value. Hes clearly good enough to play for the World Jrs and get drafted by Winnipeg. Eric Johnson, yes does have a history of injuries but clearly wen in the lineup has produced. Yes, I will be keeping him and thats because of his age (26) and because of the team that he plays on. Sorry that I took over a team that was poorly run. Again i will tell you that im trying to get younger and fill up my minor league rosters and adding a 2nd rd waiver pick i could easily pick up one of those guys i just traded away. Now from what I hear nad what ive seen in your trades in the past, youve "bullied" guys in trades. I gave you a chance to get Steen from me and you choose not too so dont get mad and go on a rant cuz i wouldnt give into you when we were in talks before this trade happened. From what ive noticed in this league its impossible to make trades cuz of the value some of the owners put on some players. Now we will wait and see if this trade gets veto
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Post by Tyler - Jets on Feb 15, 2015 17:27:36 GMT -5
Put it to league vote if the rest of league even feels this is necessary. With Nos's opinion clearly stated it would be nice to hear from more GM's.
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Feb 15, 2015 21:37:23 GMT -5
Ok so maybe our definition of "tanking" is different because everyday I set my lineup, making sure I have all my players in the lineup every night. If i had my top guys sitting on the bench and not paying attention to it then yes you would have a point. No, I'm pretty sure the definition of intentionally tanking is clear to everybody with a working brain. If you aren't making moves to make your team better you're intentionally tanking. I think that Steen and Little are a wash. Steen has 19 G 29 A for 48 P and Little has 21 G 25 A for 46 P. They aren't a wash, there's a reason one is ranked considerably higher than the other, protip: points aren't the only important thing in fantasy. Now if you look at my team I clearly need to get younger and to fill my Grand Rapids roster up since I only have 11 players out of 19. No, wrong, your team needs to get better, not younger. If you want to fill those spots do a little research and you'll come away with comparable players for free to the ones you're 'after' in this embarrassing deal. Now like Tyler said, everyone evaluates talent differently. Josh Anderson has just started his NHL career so giving his stats as of right now i think doesnt mean a thing. Living in London and watching him play his OHL career, I do think he deserves a roster spot and can help my team in the future. What in God's name are you talking about? The only thing we have to evaluate a player are their stats and production, their game play. I didn't just give his NHL stats, I gave his horrible AHL stats as well as his mediocre OHL stats. How else are you going to determine whether a player is going to make a difference at the NHL level? Another protip: Josh Anderson will never make any meaningful contribution to a fantasy team. Joe Colborne, Im sorry but what the hell does shots per game have to do anything about fantasy? ? He has good upside, on a up and coming team. LOL! You may just be an idiot. Am I just speaking to an idiot without a clue? Shots are a category genius, just like goals and assists. Get it? Duh! He has average to terrible fantasy upside. Simon Despres is 23 yrs old on a very deep Dman core in Pitt but will get a chance to play more in a few years. You don't have a few years to wait on Simon Despres. His eligibility is almost up, if he doesn't become a keeper player in the next year he's a throwaway worthless player on your club. He will not become a keeper player, probably never will. Eric Comrie, again what does his size have to do with his fantasy value. His size has everything to do with his ability and chances to make it in the NHL as a starting goalie. The dude is malnourished. That's not a positive, in his favor, kind of attribute. Why do you continue to be so obtuse? Hes clearly good enough to play for the World Jrs and get drafted by Winnipeg. He was lucky enough to play for the behemoth Canadian squad, yeah. Lots of crappy players who never amount to anything are drafted. Eric Johnson, yes does have a history of injuries but clearly wen in the lineup has produced. Yes, I will be keeping him and thats because of his age (26) and because of the team that he plays on. Sorry that I took over a team that was poorly run. You're keeping him? Really? When you have 3 superior defensemen in Kronwall, Wideman & Seabrook? How many defensemen are you planning on keeping? Another tip, it should never be more than 2. Again i will tell you that im trying to get younger and fill up my minor league rosters and adding a 2nd rd waiver pick i could easily pick up one of those guys i just traded away. I wouldn't expect any of those players to fall past the first round, if they even make it to the waiver draft. If you don't have many good keepers then why are you trading away 3 to 4 good options for peanuts? Again, the whole 'getting younger to get better' mindset is a misnomer. Get better to get better, trading away four key pieces like that is idiotic. Now from what I hear nad what ive seen in your trades in the past, youve "bullied" guys in trades. I gave you a chance to get Steen from me and you choose not too so dont get mad and go on a rant cuz i wouldnt give into you when we were in talks before this trade happened. From what ive noticed in this league its impossible to make trades cuz of the value some of the owners put on some players. Bullied? From my vantage point you were the one who was bullying me. I gave you everything you asked for, even changed a prospect to a much more valuable one because you backed down from your original stance. You put me in a stand off for a 5th round waiver pick, squeezing everything you possibly could like a leech, I held my ground and told you that was the deal I was comfortable with. You come back at me saying you'll entertain other offers from teams if you don't get that 5th rounder, I tell you to go ahead and do that because that's the deal I'm comfortable with. You then go ahead with this head scratcher of a deal, one that's much less valuable than my offer. Now again, who was bullying who? Also, it should be difficult to make trades. Now we will wait and see if this trade gets veto If this trade doesn't get vetoed it's because of the apathy within the league, and that apathy will kill the league. Put it to league vote if the rest of league even feels this is necessary. With Nos's opinion clearly stated it would be nice to hear from more GM's. Every second that ticks by without you voluntarily pulling the deal makes me hate you more and more. Makes me respect you less and less. Aren't you and Jeff friends as well? Have some guts and play with undeniable integrity.
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Post by Tyler - Jets on Feb 15, 2015 22:02:59 GMT -5
This is getting ridiculous you win Nos trade pulled I will work on over paying for one or two of these players to satisfy the league. There needs to be something done in this league to increase parity. In my 6 seasons I have seen 2 champions and 4 teams make the finals. After getting berated by one super serious go hard to many times over fantasy hockey I am thinking this really isn't worth the time I put into it to be a good GM. Not to mention not a single other GM has put their two cents in. You are right in one thing the Apathy of this league is killing it and the other is the outrageous values to acquire any talent. Take this trade and all subsequent roster moves down. You will here from me when necessary on the forums. I am going to contemplate whether or not I want to continue on in a league that two people are going to win for the next 5 years.
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Post by Tyler - Jets on Feb 15, 2015 22:41:43 GMT -5
This above post is not meant to be mean spirited I want to continue on is this league. Just think we all need to be a little more active and talk about some ways we can increase the parity and fun for everyone. Good luck to all teams in their playoff push and I am open to dealing
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Post by Tyler - Jets on Feb 16, 2015 10:59:07 GMT -5
Can we actually hear from some other GM's now that the poll is open. At least get on here and vote.
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Feb 16, 2015 11:06:54 GMT -5
First let me start off by saying that all the name calling is unnecessary and is counterproductive. It has no place in the league (unless something is being a douche-bag), which isn't the case here. So let's keep it clean.
Anyway, I first saw the trade on the Yahoo database and my immediate reaction was "Hmm. Good playoff move for Winnipeg, but Tyler must be going up a TON in the way of future assets." So I logged on to the forum to check the full deal, and after doing so, I must say that it is very underwhelming. It is hard to argue against the GM's value players differently" argument because there is some merit in it. We all could cite any number of deals where suspect moves have worked out for a GM and any number of deals where a suspect move has completely destroyed a team. But that is neither here nor there, because there isn't any way to confirm that until later.
As for the parity discussion, the league has actually gotten significantly tougher with increased parity amongst all teams every season for the past 3-4 years. That is, the points separating the top 6 teams have decreased, and the points separating playoff teams from non-playoff teams have decreased. Just because the same few teams always make the playoffs or win the league does not mean that there is not increased parity. I (along with you guys) have worked hard to make sure that this is the case by implementing various rule changes and the like.
It isn't always about bullying, or cheating, or whatever. If a particular GM consistently succeeds over multiple years, under various circumstances, could it not just be because that individual is a talented GM? The top teams stay at the top because they are able to consistently identify talent (better, quicker) and have the ability to overcome adversity. The bottom teams have a waiver draft just like the top teams, and the bottom teams have an equal opportunity to pick up point per game players out of free agents just like the top teams. With that said, I would like to make it clear that I think we have a great group of GM's in the league now, each talented in his own way. Some GM's were just given less to work with starting out.
In any event, I have put up a veto poll for the league to vote on. Should a consensus not be reached before tomorrow night I will have to manually veto the trade on Yahoo for future consideration until a final tally has been counted.
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Post by Markus - Hurricanes on Feb 16, 2015 11:40:25 GMT -5
While I think this is a pretty brutal trade for Detroit, I have no reason to suspect actual collusion. Therefore the deal should not be vetoed.
The parity in this league is actually quite good. I took over a playoff bubble team long time ago and that team remained as one for a long time finishing just above the playoff line, but never making much noise in the actual playoffs. Then my team had a brutal season in 11-12 with piling injuries and underperfoming players and I finished 2nd to last. The next season I came back loaded with draft picks after selling rentals and a quick retooling later my team was the second strongest in the league. 2nd in both regular season and playoffs. This season is going quite similarly so far.
Don't tell "the top teams are always the same" when it's clearly not the case. Ottawa and San Jose have had the most success because they've been the two best teams in the league, but that doesn't mean that any team can't reach and usurp those teams. Saying that top teams overrate players is also quite moronic, because a top team would never remain as one if they constantly refused to upgrade the team by overrating players.
Getting players like Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin etc is next to impossible in this league because the number of keepers is limited and there's no one better out there, so why the heck would you trade the absolute best? Same goes for the tier below that with Stamkos, Giroux, Tavares etc, not to mention the elite goalies. Very hard to get those and it doesn't matter if you're offering 10 Brian Little's, it's still a terrible offer. What you have to do is identify a Claude Giroux when he breaks out as a winger in the playoffs, not when he's a bonafide superstar center pushing 90 points every season.
Or you can get some actually useful picks and draft yourself the right prospects. But that requires an actual plan and a bit of patience.
Rant over.
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Post by Chris - Capitals on Feb 16, 2015 11:41:09 GMT -5
I was online when the trade got posted and right away thought...."wow underpayment" I stopped myself from posting anything at that time because I wasn't fully up to speed on some of the prospects listed and didn't want to scream veto without knowing the facts behind the trade. From a GM that has torn it all down to rebuild I don't like this move at all. I don't at all see how it helps Detroit long term for many of the reasons already discussed in this thread. However if the league lets it stand I'm not going to bitch and moan it is his team and I guess that's his vision so whatever. I do think this hurts the league as it loads up Winnipeg at very little cost to him both now and with futures not much impact towards his team as far as what he is losing.
As for the parity I think we're getting there for sure look at spots 6-9 right now for example the middle of the pack is getting closer this year then it has been and this years last playoff spot could come down to the last week of the regular season. As for the activity that has been questioned in this thread as well, to a point I agree. There are times when I wait weeks for a reply or never even get one. Sometimes things like these go way to long waiting to get resolved but it must me noted that we all have lives outside of this "game" and we can't always be responsive 24/7 on here. I for one have messages that I have to reply to waiting but just haven't gotten the time to put together a coherent thought with full time job, full time student, and father of 2. I do however find the time to get on here multiple times a day and at least keep up with what's going on within the league.
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Post by Tyler - Jets on Feb 16, 2015 12:24:54 GMT -5
Great points by all of you thank you for an honest open opinion on all of the goings on in this thread.
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Mike
Second Liner
50%
Posts: 297
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Post by Mike on Feb 16, 2015 13:30:56 GMT -5
Personally think it is under payment for the return but don't believe in a veto. If you go by past seasons as has been mentions the Carters etc in the deal have better past, but also on the other hand Little and Hudler have to be looked at what their doing now with both being on improved teams than in past years they are putting up better numbers than in years past. Which if their teams continue in this way whose to say that won't continue to improve. Things got a little heated in the comments above and a lot of the winning by the couple of teams I believe also has to do with them being in the league for a long period of time and being able to build their teams how they like. About half of the league has joined within the past year and a half( some taking over very poorly managed teams Det,Col) and just since I've been in this league I've noticed the gap closing. Detroit finished last I believe last season n Colorado was last when I took over and now our middle of the pack. As I said at the beginning not a deal I would've done personally but don't see it as crazy of an issue as was stated first, don't see a veto for it n either way it goes not going to make a big fuss about it.
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Post by Richard - Blues on Feb 16, 2015 17:53:31 GMT -5
As the old adage states, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".
While IMO, it isnt the best trade scenario, I also don't see it as collusion or a trade that is vetoable.
Although, I will say that I think Bryan Little is underrated.
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Post by James - Ducks on Feb 16, 2015 18:56:02 GMT -5
I agree with most of the prior posts. Detroit got little to no return for the players given up 'in my opinion'. However, I doubt there was any collusion with this trade. My short tenure as GM has definitely made me realize that each GM values every single player differently so if they feel like this was a good trade for both their teams then so be it.
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