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Post by Robyn - Flames on Aug 7, 2007 12:11:08 GMT -5
Team A (receives): Crosby, A. Carter, Roloson
Team B (receives): Jagr, Modano, Blake, Raycroft
Answer: Team A! Modano, Blake dropped, essentially Crosby, the perennial Art Ross winner and Roloson for Jagr and Raycroft ( a #2 goalie!). Boo!
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Team A (receives): Michalek, Cherepanov
Team B (receives): Langenbrunner, Salo, Hartnell, 2008 3rd rd. prospect
Answer: Team A! Are you kidding me? 3 waiver pool guys for Michalek and Cherepanov?!?
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Next,
Team A: Luongo, Kyle Turris
Team B: McCabe, Cammaleri, Roloson
Answer: Team A! 2nd best goalie in the league acquired for a waiver pick, a goalie on a horrible team and Cammaleri. Boo!
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Team A (receives): Patrice Bergeron
Team B (receives): 2008 1st Round prospect, 8th Round Waiver
Answer: Team A! Bergeron, a PPG player in his early 20's for a prospect and a useless waiver pick....ooops!
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Team A (receives): Ryan Smyth, 3rd Round Waiver 2008
Team B (receives): Marc-Andre Bergeron, Michael Ryder
Answer: Team A! Smyth, on a stacked offensive team for Bergeron and Ryder!?! So lopsided, plus in 2008 Ryder can be picked up in the waiver draft again using that 3rd round waiver pick....ooops!
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As you can see, Team A has been building their team by ripping off other managers who clearly don't project the proper value on some of their players. I have been watching this happen for nearly a year and quite frankly, am sick of it. Now Team A is trying to unload prospects they are going to drop for picks!
By no means am I trying to discredit the assortment of Team B's here, as trades happen throughout the year that don't always work out. But it's clear to me that Team A is taking advantage of other teams naivity and ruining the competitive balance within this league.
I used to have plenty of talks with Team A about potential trades, always coming up far apart in how we value players. Oddly enough, once he realized he couldn't have my studs for his scraps, he stopped talking trades with me! Coincidence? I think not.
Congratulations San Jose, uh I mean Team A. You've done a fantastic job building your team through lopsided trades.
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Post by patriot0103 on Aug 7, 2007 12:34:08 GMT -5
I used to have plenty of talks with Team A about potential trades, always coming up far apart in how we value players. Same here, I feel Nos overvalues his players too, which is actually the reason I made this thread.. www.nafhl2.proboards79.com/index.cgi?board=generaldiscussion&action=display&thread=1181197808However, fact is, it's not Nos' fault...it's the fault of the GM's on the other end making the dumb trades. I'm not a fan of vetoes, but I do agree in the sense that I feel GMs that make ridiculously dumb deals over and over again should be dealt with appropriately. (Note: I'm not calling anyone out) Kudos for having the guts to make this thread though and say how you feel. |
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Aug 7, 2007 17:03:01 GMT -5
Well, maybe the added analysis was for dramatic effect, but I can justify making my move (which I admit I regret now) and I'm sure that other managers can justify their own. I dropped Modano and Blake... so what? That just means I had depth which was helpful to me during the season, but not afterwards. I got an improvement in net (calling Raycroft a #2 goalie shouldn't be considered, you couldn't tell me over a year ago that Toskala was going to get traded to the Leafs) and a player I figured would match Crosby's point totals, with a better G:A ratio (Jagr). That didn't quite work out, but all in all that trade did benefit my team short term. A case could be made for all of those trades I'm sure, though Bobby Lu still seems pretty crazy to me. But anyway, I'm not here to come to Nos's defense, just my own. Nos is still an asshole  PS: Don't sell Hartnell short. |
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Aug 7, 2007 18:23:42 GMT -5
This thread is perfect. Right on the nose. No pun intended.
It is just as much Nose's fault as it is the opposing managers. Every trade in question was done with Winnipeg, Montreal or an almost equal caliber team. These teams were/are some of the weaker teams and in position to be "bullied" by stronger managers. When Nose tries to trade with any other manager, as Calgary mentioned, he gets shot down so he runs back to where his bread is buttered. Nose is not in the least bit innocent, he knows fully well he is ripping people off left right right. Instead of doing actual research or cleverly designing his team he spends his time looking for his next victim and writing up statements to try and justify his obviously lopsided trades. What is this? Guilty by reason of insanity? I think not.
Also, dont forget this gem:
Team A receives:
Milan Hejduk
Travis Zajac
Eric Fehr
Team B receives:
Peter Budaj
First line player in Hejduk on said stacked offense, plus a young potential first line player in Zajac and prospect to boot for a career backup goalie. SUPER.
Fact of the matter is, it takes absolutely ZERO skill to "trade" or "build" a team in this fashion What is even more tasteless is trying to justify making a living off ripping people off claiming: pure "managerial talent" and "hard work" especially on a team (you) didnt draft. Instead of prancing around like a pompous prick, gloating about how good your team is, and how skilled you are as a manager, maybe (you) should sort of fly under the radar and be thankful because everything you own was either drafted for you or stolen. Your free agent signings and average drafts speak for themselves.
I've been waiting a long time to say that.
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Aug 7, 2007 21:12:12 GMT -5
Well, a lot can be said about a thread like this, and the response it gets from each individual truly shows the lack of integrity each has, especially the Commish of the league who not only allows a diss thread to take place (not only dissing myself but all the other managers involved in the trades) but also rips into the person in question. I don't feel I need to defend myself but here are some things to think about...
Robyn, you have no idea what I'm going to do so stop pretending. How do you know I'm going to drop all 5 of those guys? You don't. Furthermore, I stopped talks with you not because your deals were always ridiculous, but because you're the flakiest manager here. You're never around, to put it simply.
Jesse, I think every manager is guilty of overvaluing his own players, no? It shows a stability and confidence in your team. Looking at that thread are you honestly saying you aren't worried you might be wrong? Let's see in a year.
Andrew, good head on your shoulders, always very calculating and honest. The Crosby deal we made can't be construed as a bad one, especially at the time.
Now we come to King Commish, a guy who really has no room for talking about ripping other managers off. I won't diss anybody up front, but it's quite obvious when looking at his history of trades. The trades in question were with Winnipeg, Montreal, Vancouver, and Toronto. That's 4 managers. Let's recap what happened...
Toronto trade doesn't need explaining.
Vancouver trade, Dalton came to me with the proposal and we came to an agreement. Surely this can't be seen as a bad trade, look at Bergeron's numbers since joining the Islanders, 21 pts in 23 games for a defender. Let's also add that our Commish offered a 3rd round waiver pick for Smyth straight up. Hmmm...
Montreal trade, at the time I got Michalek he wasn't doing any better than Hartnell. Both young players with Michalek having better upside, Hartnell also has a good shot to be better this year with Philly. Add to that Salo (a PP specialist) and Langenbrunner, how is this construed as a "bad" trade? By the picks I got in a "weak" draft year? Let's also add that our Commish cautioned me going forward with it because he said Michalek was incredibly injury prone, but I went with it anyway and it paid off.
Winnipeg trades, I was after Luongo and he drew up the deal, period. Same with the Bergeron trade and Hejduk trade. He wanted a top 3 pick and came to me, he apparently didn't get it done with the other two managers. I didn't want to deal Budaj but he kept adding to the deal until I couldn't refuse it. He needed another goalie, Budaj will be very good this year with Colorado.
Now I understand some of these deals are clearly in favour of my team, if I didn't think I was getting the better deal or an equal deal I wouldn't make the trades. However, any manager here would do the same if approached with these offers, if you'd say "no thanks" you're either a bad manager or a liar. The only deal that can be called into question in my history is the Luongo deal, and even then it's sketchy since he offered it up, and nobody called for a veto.
Next, the team that was "drafted for me" was ass, and old, I don't really care what you guys claim because it's bogus and shows the lack of knowledge you possess. My average free agent signings and drafts? I've had one completed draft and I got Cherepanov, Turris, Backlund, and Hickey. I'm pretty sure I had the best draft out of all 12 teams. Furthermore, the current draft I've taken Campbell, Nagy, and Ribeiro. Holes to fill on my roster, young players who will have bigger roles next season. Who have you taken? Over the hill guys on the verge of retirement. Forsberg, Tkachuk, Modano, Samsonov, etc. Your hockey knowledge comes from name recognition. You also basically traded Selanne for Gagne. I hope managers realize age difference in future trades.
Having said all that, I guess it's the price you pay for being on top.
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Post by patriot0103 on Aug 7, 2007 21:27:12 GMT -5
Jesse, I think every manager is guilty of overvaluing his own players, no? It shows a stability and confidence in your team. Looking at that thread are you honestly saying you aren't worried you might be wrong? Let's see in a year. To some extent, perhaps, or at least in some cases. I just think you do it more than others, and more drastically. As far as am I worried I'm wrong, not in the least. The only one would be the Crosby-Ovy one, because I clearly went out on quite a limb. It is just as much Nose's fault as it is the opposing managers. Every trade in question was done with Winnipeg, Montreal or an almost equal caliber team. These teams were/are some of the weaker teams and in position to be "bullied" by stronger managers. I see your point, but I still think the blame is on the managers that allow themselves to get ripped off. I WAS the weakest team last year...does that put me in a position to be ripped off by Nos...Nope. GM's are responsible for their own team, if they can't be responsible then they shouldn't have a team. I agree in the sense that Nos brags about building his team, I've seen it and even made smart ass comments about it... but if someone is dumb enough to accept a dumb deal that benefits you..would you accept it? I'd hate to make trades that get my team to the top and then have people blame me because they were ones that worked out to my favor. I'm not completely defending Nos, but come on, this isn't entirely him. At least he's doing what benefits his team, which is his job as that teams manager. As far as avoiding certain people to trade with...Can I successfully pull off trades with anymanager? hell no. Both you (Derrick) and Mark are impossible for me to reach a deal with and I've trade quite often. Some teams it just doesn't work because of conflicting opinions and interests. Oh yea, and to answer your rhetorical question.. "Guilty by reason of insanity?" Yes.  |
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Post by Mark - Bruins on Aug 7, 2007 22:17:12 GMT -5
As far as avoiding certain people to trade with...Can I successfully pull off trades with anymanager? hell no. Both you (Derrick) and Mark are impossible for me to reach a deal with and I've trade quite often. Some teams it just doesn't work because of conflicting opinions and interests. Well, in my defense the reason we can't make trades with each other is: a) we think too much alike. we're both big fans of the same players. so we're not likely to deal the guys we like the most b) playground rules prevent us from making a trade with each other since we're sworn blood enemies. if we abandon playgound rules, then we're dipping our toes in anarchy. we would be one step away from police in riot gear and tear gas in the streets. as an honest, law-biding citizen i cannot let jesse start such a horrendus chain of events. |
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Aug 7, 2007 23:00:19 GMT -5
okay? so you have 2 of the first 4 picks? it doesnt take ANY SKILL to pick players in the top 5. (just like it doesnt take any skill to target and trade for superstars using crap) they have been scripted and written out in every single prospect report, chart, magazine, website, newspaper, and on and on and on. great, all that proves is that you can read....not to mention you had 4 picks in the first two rounds that you acquired through your crappy trades. by default, you had a better chance at getting better players. pick for position you dont even sniff the top 3 in terms of "best." pittsburgh, calgary and buffalo all have you beat...just to name a few. anyway SKILL comes from being able to select lesser known talent out of the pool, and players in the mid-late rounds, not those that you are SUPPOSED pick.
yes yes, fill your holes. Problem with your theory is....i dont have any holes to fill. I have the luxury of being able to take guys like forsberg and modano and samsonov (who i guess is over the hill at 28) hoping they pan out. what do i have to lose? any player i draft will be in the waiver pool at years end anyway so i might as well draft the ones who are "proven" and will score more points this up coming season no? ...but im sure you already knew that.
are you suggesting Hasek is in any better shape? or did you just conveniently overlook that part of the trade? both selanne and hasek remained unsigned when the trade occurred. not to mention, this was all before philly went on their free agent signing spree. should selanne remain playing, he is vastly better than gagne. (selanne 94pts 48ppp vs. gagne 68 pts 21 ppp) age be damned.
Now, generally this is against my "code of ethics" because my "credentials" dont matter so much to me, BUT maybe this thread is what you need to bring you back down to earth. A reality check of sorts. without further adieu....
so you won the playoffs...big deal. A stretch of 2 weeks out of the entire year and that suddenly makes you "on top" or "the best?" spare me PLEASE. Things to take note of:
Your season record versus me..... you... 0-2 me.... 2-0
# of 17 week undefeated streaks..... you... 0 me...... 1
Total regular season championships won.... you....0 me.....1
Records held in record book.....you...6 me.....12
Record against top 5 teams in season play.... you 5-3 me 8-1
Apparent waiver picks needed to fill holes in roster......you.....3 me......0
...and lets not forget week 26/27 totals (championship weeks)
you 31g 43a +15 54pims 27ppp 1shp 4gwg 228sog 6wins 2.35gaa 0.915save% 1sho
me 24g 44a +29 73pims 28ppp 4shp 5gwg 230sog 6wins 1.99gaa 0.924save% 0sho
if my records are correct, and im sure they are, by that account it looks like 9-2-1 in favor of me....and thats without 5, possibly more (injured) players and only 1 goalie to work with. sooooooooooooooooooo, i guess if that is your idea of "being on top."
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Post by patriot0103 on Aug 7, 2007 23:27:22 GMT -5
So... the 2006-07 NHL Buffalo Sabres > 2006-2007 NHL Ottawa Senators or the 2006-07 Anaheim Ducks
Good to know. *Points to the sky*
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Aug 8, 2007 0:01:42 GMT -5
I don't care where my picks were taken, fact remains I had the best draft out of all 12 teams. That is what was called into question, and you were wrong, fact. Throughout the year I'm aware of who I want and how I can obtain them, hence the trades I made to gain higher picks. That's not luck, that's skill.
It's better practice to utilize your assets as best you can. You aren't going to be able to trade or use guys like Modano, Forsberg, Tkachuk, or Samsonov to your advantage, so why not take guys you have a chance of trading? That is unless managers actually give you value for guys over the hill. When I say to "fill holes" it means that I have the luxury of playing out the year with Wolski, Zajac, and Prucha on my farm.
Hasek was a non-factor in that trade when it comes to Gagne and Selanne. Breakdown:
Simon Gagne > Teemu Selanne (age does come into play when Gagne can play for another 10 years and Selanne is on the brink of retirement...age be damned indeed.)
Dominik Hasek > Jussi Jokinen & Anton Stralman (even for 1 year)
Bobby Ryan > Rob Schremp
2007 2nd Round Prospect & 2007 6th Round Waiver < 2009 1st Round Prospect
Hmmm...
Furthermore, the time of that trade Timonen and Hartnell had been traded to Philly and any idiot would know that Philly was going to get a top center. Briere even made the most sense and was the easiest signing to see.
Big deal that I won the playoffs? Are you out of your mind? That's what we play for all year. Your guys didn't show up when it mattered. I won the league Championship, that's what puts me on top. As for the season records...
You beat me 2-0? Actually you beat me once, the other "week" was a 3-4 day short week where normal goalie starts didn't apply, we agreed to play at least 2 goalie games each and you proceeded to get a shutout on your first game and kept it, thus skewing 3 stats. I suggest you update your record books too, to include playoff records.
This is always my favourite, the Championship week, the one you didn't get to. You forget to acknowledge something though, if I were playing against you I would have played the week differently, strategically. The most glaring would be not sending Michalek down to my farm to keep for free, but playing him for those 2 weeks. In 2 weeks Michalek did amass more than:
1 assist, 1 ppp, 1 gwg, and 2 shots
Michalek stats for the last two weeks:
12 assists, 4 ppp, 3 gwg, and 32 shots
Which was the difference between our teams, thus bringing the match to 6-5-1 in my favour. So really, don't sit there and skew facts, each individual match is played differently as part of an overall strategy.
I think you need the reality check.
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Post by Mark - Bruins on Aug 8, 2007 0:59:43 GMT -5
I don't care where my picks were taken, fact remains I had the best draft out of all 12 teams. That is what was called into question, and you were wrong, fact. Throughout the year I'm aware of who I want and how I can obtain them, hence the trades I made to gain higher picks. That's not luck, that's skill. last i checked, most picks doesn't = best draft. for all we know, cherepanov will become the next generation samsonov/kovalev (lazy but talented NHL player doomed to 60 point seasons), turris will bust, hickey will prove to have been a wasted top 5 pick for the kings, and backlund will stay in sweden or he'll get abducted by aliens, anally probed multiple times, and never play an nhl game because he can no longer skate straight without having pain. the point is their PROSPECTS, they're unknown/unproven, and you can't say a thing about how great you are at drafting when the only time any of these players have touched an NHL jersey was on draft day. Still, I enjoy reading you stating how great your draft was and not backing it up with anything but the gospel of your words. Last I checked, nothing has changed with these players since last month (when you drafted them) to show any drastic improvement to support your claim. It's cool, though, because Patrick Kane will become a perennial 50g scorer, Esposito will break 100 points playing on a line with Crosby and Malkin, and then you'll realize you didn't have the best draft this year. I can't back any of this up, but why not make unsubstantiated claims about players that won't make any significant contribution in the NHL for many years? It seems to be the "hip" thing to do. PS its more impressive to be regular season champion than playoff champion. like derrick said, a two week hot streak can't outshine year long dominance. there is so much random crap (games played per week, injuries, hot streaks, and teams resting players for the 'real' playoffs) than can effect "championship" week that its almost anti-climactic to crown a winner in this manner. ever wonder why roto format leagues don't do playoffs? thats probably why. so don't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back. |
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Post by Robyn - Flames on Aug 8, 2007 1:37:08 GMT -5
Robyn, you have no idea what I'm going to do so stop pretending. How do you know I'm going to drop all 5 of those guys? You don't. Furthermore, I stopped talks with you not because your deals were always ridiculous, but because you're the flakiest manager here. You're never around, to put it simply. It appears I'm around just long enough to notice your pompous and narcissistic ways, making unethical moves and trades in your own self-interest with no regard for the integrity of the league. ...It seems my flaky self (fantastic description of me by the way, right on the nose!) isn't the only who realizes the effects of your actions. |
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Aug 8, 2007 1:59:41 GMT -5
Mark, for all we know Kane and Esposito could perish in a plane crash. You're right, they're unproven, nobody knows what the future holds. However, I see my draft as being at least in the top 2, surely not an "average" draft by any means and that's the point I was trying to make. For the record, I like Cherepanov & Turris over Kane & Esposito.  Robyn, you'd do the exact same thing. If you don't like my trades veto them, simple. I'm also glad you admit to being a flake, you're worthless to this league. |
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Post by patriot0103 on Aug 8, 2007 8:32:21 GMT -5
I like Cherepanov & Turris over Kane & Esposito. You crazy. You guys can criticize Nos all you want, because I'm being entertained and some of it is warranted...but let's drop the 2 week argument. We all play to win the championship, and that is the ultimate goal...whether you're a 1 seed or a 6 seed, let's not devalue that..if it's not what we play for then what kind of league is this? |
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Post by Robyn - Flames on Aug 8, 2007 12:13:44 GMT -5
Robyn, you'd do the exact same thing. If you don't like my trades veto them, simple. I'm also glad you admit to being a flake, you're worthless to this league. Nah, I'm just worthless to you because I won't trade you my best players. You repeatedly calling me a flake is irrelevant, your opinion is quickly becoming worthless around here. By no means would I complete trade after trade that are so lopsided in my favour. What kind of skill would that take? I clearly didn't make this thread to devalue the transactions of any managers other than you Nos. I made that quite clear in my post that I wasn't criticizing any other managers in this league. You can try and spin this in any direction you choose, the facts speak for themselves. |
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Aug 8, 2007 13:14:14 GMT -5
the facts speak for themselves. They sure do. All this thread is doing is making other GM's look foolish for completing deals that didn't work out. What do I care what you think of me or my deals? I did what was right for my team. Why should I feel bad about it? As I said, if you sit there and say you wouldn't do the same when offered you're a terrible GM. By the way, your worthlessness to this league stems far from where I'm standing. Behind closed doors, you'd be surprised...maybe not. |
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Post by Robyn - Flames on Aug 8, 2007 13:44:08 GMT -5
the facts speak for themselves. They sure do. All this thread is doing is making other GM's look foolish for completing deals that didn't work out. What do I care what you think of me or my deals? I did what was right for my team. Why should I feel bad about it? As I said, if you sit there and say you wouldn't do the same when offered you're a terrible GM. By the way, your worthlessness to this league stems far from where I'm standing. Behind closed doors, you'd be surprised...maybe not. No, I wouldn't repeatedly accept lopsided trades in my favour. It's a matter of integrity and ethical conduct. Let's say an impoverished family offered me a cheque for $5000. In your opinion, I'd be a stupid individual (a terrible GM) to turn down that kind of money, especially when I am continuing to rack up student loans. Yet, I wouldn't even consider taking the money, since its UNETHICAL. Now, I understand that this situation is quite different from the fantasy hockey league we are in (no impoverished GM's etc.), but the fact of the matter is, INTEGRITY and ETHICS play a major role in the strategic thinking of all the facets of my life. Now I'm a terrible GM because I don't accept lopsided deals? Please.... Worthless to the league? Because I wasnt around for a certain period? When you decide to get some higher education maybe you'll realize the burden a masters program can put on a student with two part time jobs and numerous other commitments. Yet, I've still been around for every single necessary league function, hmmm... If anyone goes through life giving a shit what selfish and greedy individuals think of them, they are wasting their time. I could care less what YOU think of me... What you are insinuating is that OTHER GM's feel I'm worthless to this league. You won't even find 3 that will agree with you. As a matter of fact, if you can find 3, I'll leave this league today! Go! Find 3 and you can get rid of me, I promise! You keep saying I'm worthless to this league, yet haven't given even one half-assed reason. Atleast back up your ridiculous statement with some evidence... I didn't make this thread to just say 'Nos is unethical and preys on other GM's' did I? No, I had some evidence to substantiate my claim. Good luck to you sir... |
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Post by Nos - Sharks on Aug 8, 2007 13:58:23 GMT -5
Now, I understand that this situation is quite different from the fantasy hockey league we are in Bingo. This is cutthroat shit. Not a place to be "nice" about anything. I want as much treasure as I can get my hands on and I'll do what it takes to get it. Also, what "evidence" have you really given to "prove" your claims? It's an opinion, all you did was put up my trade summary with an agenda. The practice of defacing an individual GM is as unethical as it gets. Finding 3 GM's that agree is simple. Getting those GM's to come out and say it is another story. Feel free guys. By the way, I don't want you out of the league by any means, if you're going to be active and around then it's cool with me. |
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Hawks
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Post by Hawks on Aug 8, 2007 17:14:23 GMT -5
Wow...you guys must be really bored with this draft |
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Post by Derrick - Senators on Aug 8, 2007 18:51:22 GMT -5
do you just choose to completely ignore what i say? pick out parts of my post that help you and only you? selective reading much?
PAY ATTENTION. my players were injured, not underpreforming. my guys didnt show up? my guys were sucking down lattes and eating popcorn in the hospital/ rehab center. Those who werent were enjoying a nice show from the press box in their wheelchairs. there is a difference between not showing up and not being able to show up. no matter how great of a fantasy manager you are, you can not predict freak occurrences or injuries. period. youre "on top" for this reason and this reason alone.
you would have played the week differently? are you serious? you played every allowable game at the forward position as it is. how would your "strategy" differ? you going to stream players for more points or what?
anyway, Michalek is irrelevant. you dont just automatically get his points added to your totals. in order to do so you would have had to bench or drop one of your other forwards forfeiting their totals so the outcome would be much the same in my favor.....which isnt even the point. The point of this whole exercise being i was playing with 70% (or less) of my roster due to some unlucky situations and bad breaks. no amount of michaleks is going to make up for that, sorry.
yeah, we play to win championships because we dont have a choice. that is the format presented to us via yahoo sports. i just assume there not be a playoffs, and the winner be whoever has the best record/most points at the end of the season. i know the playoffs are supposed to provide "excitement" but they do a very poor job of simulating the real life playoffs in fantasy sports. this is where H2H falls way flat, but still provides a better setting for keeper leagues as opposed to roto, so we have to live with it. this has been an issue with me for quite some time for the very same reason (s) what happened last year. THE BEST TEAM DOESNT ALWAYS WIN. I have realized this, but for someone to automatically claim their team is the best based on these merits alone is ridiculous, not to mention pathetic. talk about grasping for straws.
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So exciting.
You better make that pick or trade it! I'm excited to see if we can use up all the draft picks this year.